Monitor mix problem

[sither]

Hi there,

Im new to the forum but glad to be onboard and am seeking a little help with my monitor mix settings. I am running a Soundcraft MFX 12 desk in a live situation and the front of house is running fine. I do have a problem with the monitor side however.

 

The fx on the desk are onboard and occupy aux 1, leaving me two further aux channels (2+3)for seperate monitor mixes. Im happy with the FX but I cannot get the monitor mix working suitably. I am running two separate monitor mixes to monitor 1 stereo music track and two individual mics.

 

Channels occupied as follows:

 

1, Mic 01

2, Mic 02

7, One side of stereo music track

8, Other side of stereo music track

 

I am using Sennheiser EW 300 IEM G2 in ear monitors running on two individual channels and set up on aux 2 and 3 and these are working fine also and deliver a separate mix to each monitor.

 

I can get a suitable level on the stereo track side in the in ears with no problem using the corresponding channels (7+8) monitor send and can get the initial vocal on track 1 (aux 2) into the mix slightly higher than the track and route FX to this mic also using the FX send......so far so good.

 

My problem is with mixing in the secondary vocal which I would like to sit above the track but below vocal 1 (Mic 1) If I bring the level of Mic 2 to the same as 1 the mix is good, the fx is good, the clarity is good, but as soon as I try and sit it back in the mix the direct vocal backs off but leaves the fx at the same level, this then makes the initial vocal distant but swimming in the same level of reverb and the further back in the mix it is, the less direct vocal there is but the same amount of FX.

 

I have tried the Pre/Post button but it doesnt seem to make any difference apart from losing our sound engineers talkback facility on channel 3 (Engineer obviously not through front of house so signal dies)

 

Im happy to give further information if someone can advise?

 

Many thanks,

 

Steve,

[Rob_Beech]

Hi, this is not a fault. This is not something you're going to cure without sacrificing something else.

 

What it seems like you are doing is sending the FX Return to the monitors (which you seem to want). The problem is that the effects system is limited and whatever ratio of effects wet:dry and mic 1:mic2 you send and require for FOH you'll get in the monitors as a generic level up and down. If the gain structure of both mics is the same there will be no problems, but if one person has a louder voice or requires more effects FOH due to the nature of their voice then you'll get that imbalance in the monitors.

 

Effectively you are sending 4(5) things to the monitor mixes. The track is 1 (2) the vocal, the other vocal and the effects return. The effects return is already mixed so to speak, so you have no control over this unless you alter THAT mix to the effects processor. If you do this, you'll alter FOH too. I'd probably try with a little less effects back to the monitors and see if this clears things up.

[sither]

Thanks for the prompt reply, Im guessing then, that as there isnt a particular workaround my best though not ideal option is to run the monitor mix dry (as it probably should be) this will enable me to perfect the mix but at the cost of the FX and the in ear working environment. Im really surprised that this is not addressed somehow? I wonder if there might be a way of doing this by looping back down a spare channel somehow?

 

By running both monitor mixes on the same aux we can get the FX to fit in with the mix (We used to run the EFX 12 which only has 1 monitor aux but upgraded to the MFX to double that), but this is not ideal because the only flexibility that gives us is to back off the tracks and run the mics at the same level?

 

I wonder if there is a complicated workaround that might be an option?

 

thanks.

[Warthog]

I do the sound for a band & the singer has been asking for FX in the monitors for quite some time!

I think I've finally convinced her that it's not a good idea.

Technically, there is no need fro FX in the monitors, it just eats up the signal & reduces the quality of the sound.

You need to wean your singers off FX in their IEM's. The less you process a signal, the better (IMHO).

All the best!

[The Boogie Man]

Well, yes and no. Effects in mons is a personal choice. If an artiste hates the sound in their mons they don't perform well.

 

A very simple solution to this is to regard the set up as two mixes (which it should be) with their own levels and effects.

Just pick up a simple effects unit put it in line with the g2 and use it on whichever signal needs an effect.

Or pick up a small mixer (ebay is full of dirt cheap berrys) and send an unmixed signal from the auxs out of your main desk to that.

The effects for the mon mix can then be global using send and return on the little mixer if needed.

 

hth

 

baz

[Rob_Beech]

Hello again,

 

Complicated work arounds are all well and good as a one off when needed. However for permanent things like this they are often more hassle than they are worth providing several more things to go wrong 5 minutes before you are due on stage.

 

There is no actual work around using the equipment you have as the desk only has 1 effects processor. To do what you need to do you need 2 separate processors. However then you need the correct number of aux outs, and enough channels on the desk for returns.

 

It's not the fault of the desk, they're a good little desk, a budget desk but a good one, it's not a feature that would be cost effective. I've never heard of anyone wanting to do this on this level before, so it's not a sensible feature or set of features to put on a desk this size. A second fx processor, an extra aux and an extra input channel would have put the price up by no doubt over £100. One has to ask if they would be willing to pay this and if there really are enough people this would benefit for them to produce such a model.

 

Rob

[sither]

Thanks guys for the replies.

 

We ran the desk over the weekend with less FX send to the monitors and it is so much cleaner, the working environment is very different to what we had previously and whilst I can work with minimal FX my partner finds it difficult to work so dry.

 

The secondary FX unit before the in ears might be an option for her.......I will report back if she smiles anytime soon!

 

Thanks for all the advice!