Noise Induced Hearing Loss

[Guest lightnix]

Tim Roberts of The Event Safety Shop did a very good presentation on NAWR at the PSA conference earlier this year. He played this clip as a part of it and I just found it again, while looking for something else...

 

Audio demonstration of noise induced hearing loss

 

I thought my hearing was still quite good; but I must admit that I do find myself asking people to repeat themselves, in crowded rooms, sometimes

[Roderick]

A lot of useful stuff about noise in the entertainment industry can be found here: SoundAdvice

[Simon Lewis]

It is worth remembering that hearing loss (decrease in hearing acuity over a given frequency range) is very often accompanied with a loss in speech discrimination - the ability to understand what you hear when speech is heard at a normal level. Discrimination is affected by background noise, reverberation etc. and isn't usually improved by use of hearing aids, except where this remedies poor signal to noise ratios.

[Guest lightnix]

Thanks for the replies and extra info ;)

 

The point Tim made to summarise the presentation was, that if lighting manufacturers made lights which were so bright, that they gradually destroyed the punters' sight, there'd be uproar.

 

So why does everyone take such an ambivalent attitude, to sound systems which do the same to their hearing? :(

[Simon Lewis]

So why does everyone take such an ambivalent attitude, to sound systems which do the same to their hearing?

 

I'd suggest:

 

1) It's macho. When there's an entry for the loudest band in the world in the Guinness Book of Records, and the image of any decent heavy metal band is intrinsically linked with their "it goes to 11" attitude, gigs will be loud.

 

2) It's easy. Once we used to struggle to get loud sound, but now with efficent transducers and very cheap power amps, even newcomers can generate very high SPLs.

 

3) It's 'better' when it's loud. We're conditioned to accept loud = good. I can accept some of the reasons why (for example) clubs install sound systems designed for large stadia, but few punters ever question the need to run such systems at very high SPLs. Any discussion on restricting sound pressure levels is met with a chorus of "freedom of choice", "it has to be this loud", "they're my ears and I can do what I want".

 

4) Hearing loss is gradual and insidious. Like cancer, the effect is often so far removed removed from the cause, that we simply don't think about the dangers.

 

5) It's a laugh. Deaf people are funny. Deaf people are less intelligent, unable to follow conversation so are somehow stupid. We don't think of hearing loss as a disabling, alienating condition that is misunderstood and attracts little sympathy (in the way that say blindness does). Those with hearing loss are indeed "Children of a Lesser God".

 

6) It's becasue we're ignorant. Both punters and sound engineers continue to be exposed to / generate high sound pressure levels for extended periods of time without being aware of the damage that's occuring.

 

just my 2p worth...

 

 

Simon

[Andrew C]

just my 2p worth...

That answer is worth more than twopence. You have his several nails, quite squarely, on the head.

[Guest lightnix]

...Any discussion on restricting sound pressure levels is met with a chorus of "freedom of choice", "it has to be this loud", "they're my ears and I can do what I want"...

<rant>Which is all well and good, until they finally realise that their hearing has been trashed; at which point they suddenly and mysteriously metamorphose into childlike "non-experts", who "couldn't possibly" be expected to realise the danger they were in - because YOU (the promoter / PA company / sound engineer / anyone in range of a writ) didn't make it clear enough to them. Which is why they're now going to sue you all.

 

The public are full of shi need better educating, to cure them of their rank hypocrisy help them understand the risks associated with exposure to loud sound; so that they (and we) can be better protected from their current level of (frequently wanton) ignorance.</rant>

[herb]

Well indeed. The public do need better educating.

For many of us, we have to protect employees and thats where the education starts.

Venues can do more, but there can be a perceived (erronous) problem of appearing to send out the wrong message to their customers.

If we can get over that then I think more progress can be made.

 

Everybody here is on the same side I think, and the work that people like Tim do is obviously starting to hit home.

Its been a huge amount of work too, make no mistake.

 

The freedom of choice thing that simon refers to can only refer to the punters these days. For everybody working in loud environments, the regs are clear.Until there is a prosecution for a breach of the regs it will remain difficult to enforce them (even amongst the converted) and even then it will be the employer reaching into his/her pocket and not the bloody minded (and deaf) individual.

Ho hum

[Gill Cussons]

After reading the comment, 'if lights were found to damage punters eyes there would be up roar', I'd like to mention the Noise at Work Regulations are looking at the daily (or in some instances the weekly) noise dose/ exposure for people working in the industry not the public. Hopefully the public would not be exposed to these levels of noise on a daily level at their place of work. Regardless of this, they are not included under the Control Of Noise At Work Regulations. Although some compnaies

 

One person also commented on 'they are my ears' I'll do what I like. Yes they are, like smoking, people can do what they like, but not at work, hence there is a smoking bad an work place environments now too.

 

People in the industry will appreciate they need to look after there hearing as it is one of their tools of the trade, The film "Its all gone Pete Tong" is a very good example of a talented DJ that has ruined his hearing from excessive nosie levels over time and hopes people will not make the same mistakes. The majority of the badge playing now actually do have hearing defender in now they are simply clear ones or customer made so they can not be seen.

[DangerousMark]

Wierd innit ..... despite all that, there's some recommended guidelines on workplace lighting but nothing hard and fast, whereas there are some very real and legally enforcable regs on noise exposure. Which gets badly exceeded most often? Maybe we can compare it to the old CRT monitors, which were pretty bad for your eyes - super low refresh (50hz or worse), blurry resolution, often interlaced and chucking out great scads of radiation in the form of X-rays (and alphas/betas? forgive me its been a while since I studied this) aka the friendlier-sounding "Cathode Rays". Same thing. Then they got regulated and things improved quite a bit. Maybe it was your choice to sit in front of an awful stoneage terminal that was destroying your vision, but not having any pressure to improve it meant everyone else was too, including those whom suffered a lot worse or would have liked something better. With a bit of prodding, we got low-radiation, sharp focussed jobs at 70+ Hz, paving the way for decent LCDs. Maybe better sound enforcement can do similar.

 

I'm personally shocked by how many people choose to expose themselves to such stuff so often - like sitting too close to the old school TV. Maybe it's a mix of ignorance, inurement, and trying too hard with cheap kit. I'm so, so glad for my first "proper" employer (a certain wannabe-presidgious hotel nightclub in Warwickshire) being upfront and responsible and - though they didn't force us - strongly recommending we used earplugs while on the workfloor and the music was on, and providing a massive box of free ones. I'm still working my way thru the handfuls I occasionally took home... The difference you get is amazing. Til then I'd thought nightclub soundsystems were generally quite poor, then I found the distortion was all occurring in my ears, which was frightening (if clipping can wreck a speaker, what's it doing to YOU? O_o) - the things must be set up by people whose own hearing is already so wrecked that it sounds perfectly acceptable to them rather than "so loud all I can hear is static that sort-of-suggests Faithless' "Insomnia"". I hardly did a shift without them after the first demo; if nothing else it made the punters a lot easier to hear and understand as the things seemed to bandpass telephone-level speech frequencies slightly stronger than everything else. One of them falling or being pulled out with the DJ in full flow would genuinely shock you. I really felt for the poor punters having their hearing destroyed, given how much it cost to get in they could easily have afforded to give each customer a free set! Also wondered how much my clubbing at uni and occasionally inbetween for 3-4 years prior to this may have already caused issues (tinnitus, certainly).

 

Problem since has been remembering to take them with me to clubs and gigs. The smoking ban has made it worse - previously if I found I didn't have a set, I could find a couple of dog-ends on a side counter, pull out the filters, wash them off in the bogs and stuff them on in; they had almost exactly the same effect, I wouldn't be surprised to find it was similar material. Now it has to be bits of chewed up receipt or what-have-you, which I'm sure is causing earwax etc issues when bits flake off (the filters maintained their integrity until removed). But it's better than being subjected to the full punishment.

 

Really we could do with some kind of caps for noise level in clubs - unless your hearing is already stuffed, there'll be a certain level above which you can't hear the sound properly any more anyway, so it'll be beneficial for enjoyment as well as reducing exterior noise pollution. Those with crap hearing may complain it's got a bit too quiet, but just like clubbing with the plugs in, after a few minutes you don't notice any more and are properly enjoying yourself. And there won't be crowds of half-deaf people to complain after a long enough time, should it work. Won't wreck your throat shouting at the bar staff so much either. Might entice those who put the systems together to concentrate on quality rather than sheer quantity of sound. Get a bit more bloody bass in, and some decent full/high range speakers, and ease off the crashy midrange and tinny treble from the cheap all purpose drivers. (Might at the same time discourage them from using rubbish low-bitrate mp3 copies which is a spreading disease; losing some of your hearing also means you can't determine these any more... but *I* still can). When, for instance, "Slam" comes on, I'd like for once to actually hear a bit of sub-bass while dancing rather than having to go back home to experience it. This will also benefit those with wrecked ears, because they can once again feel the music once the upgrades are complete...

[Young Johnstone]

Think I'm goin to be taking that audio clip into where I work part-time (Chicago Rock Cafe) next week! It's a company policy that we wear earplugs, but if serving on the bar it can be a pain trying to understand customers, so some staff members take them out! Think it might make people understand what it would be like to go deaf, especially as most staff are 19 - 22!

 

There are alot of customers who cant understand why we wear earpugs, and when they ask us about it my response is usually "so I can ignore the d***heads who stand at the bar shouting to get served"

There are alot of people who come in every fri / sat night, so it can't be good for their hearing at all! Too top that most can't walk when they leave as their too pissed! but, I suppose it is their choice to come in and drink so much!!

 

Al

[ianl]

It's a company policy that we wear earplugs, but if serving on the bar it can be a pain trying to understand customers, so some staff members take them out! Al

 

 

sorry , but this annoys me. If the company have a policy that bar staff must wear earplugs then either it not too loud at the bar and have made a rule to cover their backs or it is too loud and they havn't done enough to reduce the volume at the bar

 

there doesnt need to be loud music at the bar, keep it to the dance floor - buy directional speakers and position them carefully, put up walls and sound proofing or even glass screens, move the bar some where else, many different ways of reducing the volume where staff are working.

 

bar staff with earplugs lead to punters shouting their orders, generally 6db or more louder than teh background level and can quite easily become much louder than the music

[timtheenchanteruk]

theres at least one bar in Leeds that has little hand held LED displays to show the punters the priced of a round, because you cant be heard, I get strange looks when I put my hearing protection in, in this particular venue, the 30dB filters go in to make it comfortable to listen to.

[rob098]

I'm so pleased that excessive volume is something everyone here feels passionately about. If we all insist that situations are conducted properly it will help turn things around.

 

Speaking as a sound engineer, my pet hate is with Rock bands (particularly young ones). I was unfortunate enough to have to mix a youth rock gig a few weeks ago and the levels were horrendous! The problem with these kids is that Mummy and Daddy have bought them the latest Marshall amp for their birthday, and their attitude in general is "buck the system" because they are in a metal band. They are reckless and just don't yet understand the whole actions/consequences thing that we all learn at some point. And there's no point telling them, it just doesn't wash. There's no way that quiet=cool.

 

On top of this, they actually can't perform unless its that loud because for 1, they have no talent and rely on volume to hide that, and secondly they rehearse in their bedroom or garage at these levels pretty much everyday and so are already showing significant signs of hearing damage.

 

 

Then as sound engineer you either have to put their Satanic vocals on top of the already hideous volume levels so as to complete the mix, or put up with all their mates complaining about how they can't hear the vocals - meanwhile Mummy and Daddy are in the audience (how else do the kids get home?) telling you to turn the guitars down!

 

Obviously I spent the night with the ear plugs in, but I feel this is a particular problem area that needs special education targeting until quiet=cool!

[Simon Lewis]

Ian,

 

I suspect that a bar where hearing protection is required to be worn by staff is a slight improvement over the more usual shrug of the shoulders and quip of "what noise law?".

 

However, the requirement to reduce noise at source and to utilise PPE as a last resource is probably unknown to most bar owners (and maybe to most ear defender suppliers ;-) Therefore, few (if any) bars will do this, unless forced to by an inspection and improvement notice.

 

Simon