The state of LIve sound!

[Paul J Need]

A very good friend of mine is, in my and many others opinion, one of the best sound designers in the UK; his ears are simply amazing and the quality of live sound he achieves is frankly, mind-blowing!

 

He is considering packing it all in and becoming a postman - the main reason - managements/producers/audience do not care anymore about what a show sounds like! It's all about bottom-line, and not about a beautiful natural sound.

 

 

 

Discuss!

[Rob_Beech]

In today's world, it's much easier to get a good sound, I don't think we can argue with that. If you look back 40 years to the equipment being used then, and compare it to what is used from 20 years ago to now there's little wonder it's easier.

General members of the public are used to sound as it is, and as it changes their taste in sound develops.

 

40 years ago, good sound was what today we'd laugh off as a joke. If we gave people the sound we gave them 40 years ago they certainly WOULD be bothered. However, over the last 15 or so years there has been very little progression IMO of sound quality of the equipment we use. There has however been progression of how we use it, so the overall sound quality has still risen.

 

I agree that people don't seem to want good sound, but I think the term "good sound" is a tricky one to grasp. Often what we as engineers class as good sound goes so far beyond a general member of the publics concept of good sound.

So why is this?

As I said, it's easier to get a good sound today, new technology, utilising computers and computer based system components likes amplifiers and crossovers give us much more flexibility. Something we wouldn't have thought possible in 1984. People who started going to events in the late 80's and still go to them today will have noticed minimal increase in the average sound quality of gigs, even though the technology has improved. Why? Because the engineers are ALSO familiar with what sounds good. I believe that alot of engineers get a good sound and stick with it, they don't progress any further. The audience are used to that, have been for years. And to them and the engineers its a good sound. And truth be known, it is a good sound.

There aren't enough engineers trying to push it beyond this good sound to shift the audiences views.

 

If all engineers made a system sound better than what is classed as good, on every gig, for a few years, then we'd increase the quality overall. What's classed as a good sound today would no longer be acceptable. Just as a sound from 25 years ago isn't acceptable today.

 

Currently, the small number of engineers that do this get a great sound at gigs, and this is memorable by alot of the audience (though perhaps they don't understand why). The rest of them continue to get a good sound.

 

I suppose its a bit of a "if it ain't broke" situation. It's a shame, I don't agree it should be like this, and I know it's not the only factor, but it's true.

 

Management and Producers are in business. They often don't have the same passion for sound (and lighting) as the engineers and the people on the stage. From experience a promoter or event organiser will save themselves a couple of hundred quid and have the system provided by cowboys an sound awful throughout the event. Just to boost their profit by some 3 or 4%. On budget events the budget for sound is the first thing to be cut. This is I'm sure partially what you're saying here. It's annoying, it's wrong, and it's downright stupid. They hire / arrange inadequate gear so they can save a few quid here and there to line their pockets.

 

Budget also gets passed around a bit aswell. I've been on an event where they've scrapped side fills in order to have 2 extra moving heads, scrapped a monitor split in order to have floor cans around the drum riser, and a couple of extra blinders. Had 6 stacks of a system instead of 8, in order to pay for a banner with the event name on it hung on the front of the stage.

 

 

 

If only you didn't have to get up so bloody early to be a postman eh........

[Ken Hughes]

When a good engineer decides to leave the industry that is a sad day.

We need good engineers to stay even if it's just to educate the newcomers however, I have every

sympathy with his reasons for wanting to go.

 

Paul wrote "It's all about bottom-line, and not about a beautiful natural sound".

It was that way some decades ago when I first used my Selmer columns and it was also that way

when The Colonel (manager of Elvis) instructed his sound company to fly the PA so he could

sell more tickets.

How difficult (or safe) was that for the engineers way back in the 50s and 60s?

Did they get any additional budget - unlikely.

 

Little will change and I fear that oil price rises and hence more expensive transport costs will have a

permanent effect on budgets for many shows and events.

The more efficient companies will survive and prosper whilst others will simply carry on as best they can.

 

Sound in general will probably not improve unless there is a definite desire amongst the majority for

it to improve.

I do however fear the sound man will face an uphill struggle over the next year or more so perhaps this is

the right time to go.

[thewhirlwind]

to be honest do 90% of joe public even notice if the sounds good?

so on that basis you can see why event organisers aren't too worried about it.

[Rob_Beech]

YES!.. they do.

 

They don't all know that though.

 

To someone who doesn't know, they get fed up with the gig if it sounds bad. its fatiguing to listen to. They aren't really aware of why, but it is the bad sound. They enjoy it more if it's good sound.

[berry120]

YES!.. they do.

 

They don't all know that though.

 

To someone who doesn't know, they get fed up with the gig if it sounds bad. its fatiguing to listen to. They aren't really aware of why, but it is the bad sound. They enjoy it more if it's good sound.

 

100% with Rob on that one. I think that's the big mistake event organisers make, they THINK that the overall sound quality doesn't really matter much because they and most people don't see the connection between them not enjoying the gig and the band sound quality - but it's usually always there!

[carey]

Great sound is like my wife. I really miss her when she isn't there, even if sometimes I don't notice her enough.

 

You just have to keep flying the flag, keep gently pointing out that music is as much an art as it is an entertainment.

 

I think that's the point I'm also trying to make: music is ART, not entertainment, although those who make money out of entertainment probably don't care.

 

The audio industry is a little self-defeating, in that it has few, if any 'standards' by which to judge things, and therefore leaves itself wide open to fools who can hide behind the 'it's all subjective' argument.

 

I for one, do not believe it is ALL subjective.

 

I think we need to stand back from the equipment and start to work towards an understanding of music and how to recreate it properly...

[johnwesguitar]

YES!.. they do.

 

They don't all know that though.

 

To someone who doesn't know, they get fed up with the gig if it sounds bad. its fatiguing to listen to. They aren't really aware of why, but it is the bad sound. They enjoy it more if it's good sound.

 

Couldn't agree more. Could his response be more of a straw and camels back thing? Not necessarily people not careing what sounds like, just a sustained barrage of egos for x number of years. The industry is full of jerks on the management/production end, and I know so many people who've packed in/ thought about packing in because of it.

[risc]

Giving up mixing live music is not that easy....

 

I just can't resist the buzz, when it's really cookin

 

I keep telling myself that all the sh.t is worth the effort

to be there when something special happens

[Solstace]

Thinking about this a little (and looking at a much bigger picture than just "live sound"), I'm perceiving in recent years a vast increase in the number of people in any community who could claim themselves to be "sound engineers". Music Technology, Theatre Studies and other similar subjects are commonly taught at GCSE and A-level. Lower-priced and (generally) better-quality kit seems to have allowed more pubs, clubs and community events to use this technology, often ably operated by enthusiastic amateurs or freelancers with much less than "high-end" experience.

 

Further, I can't help but think that what was once considered a "niche" or "specialist" field has been diluted by the sheer number of people working within it, knowingly or unknowingly. For example, I'm young and yet I still remember a time when most small church services and events (weddings, funerals, study courses/workshops etc) took place with relatively little technology - perhaps a TV and video at most. Perhaps this is a reflection of where I've worked and my experience, but these days pretty much every event that takes place in anything bigger than someone's front room seems to "need" sound, lighting and AV support, and I'm needing to teach the very basics of these areas to at least 6-8 new people per year in my day-job, usually with little past technical experience or proven competence, just to keep up with the increased demand.

 

I'd suggest we're seeing a slow-down in progress at the high-end level, but a massive proliferation of increased quality and quantity requirements at the lower-end consumer/prosumer levels. Right now I'm happy to do what I can to help see these events run as smoothly and at the highest quality we can sensibly achieve, but I can't help but feel bad for the real high-end engineers for whom the pressure of perceptions ("But sound is simple and cheap, right? My 13-year-old does sound for xxxx at the pub - how hard can it be?") is clearly "a challenge" to say the least.

 

Those are just my thoughts - perhaps others disagree or have better reasoning?

[Ken Hughes]

Comments from Thewhirlwind such as "do 90% of joe public even notice if the sounds good" are hardly beneficial

to our industry.

I often remind my customers that you never know who's gonna be at your next gig.

OK, 99% of the crowd may not even care who you are but one person in the crowd may be looking for a decent

PA or disco for a forthcoming event - it's happened.

 

Solstace offered another interesting angle on (so called) sound engineers.

You can call yourself a sound engineer these days having never mixed live sound just because you've fiddled with

a tiny mixer in your bedroom.

 

It's the same in my business where everyone's an expert 'cos they've built their own boxes but, have they

built 20,000+ boxes - NO.

Building a pair or two doesn't give you any worthwhile experience and likewise, engineering two or three events doesn't

make you a sound technician.

 

We're seeing a dilution of standards throughout our daily lives where everyone has a "security" badge with their meaningless

operating title proudly presented.

I would prefer to see the title Sound Engineer continuing to be an indication of experience and professionalism.

 

The old saying "if it was that easy everyone would do it" is certainly true in this instance.

[Trunker]

I agree with Ken. I have picked up an extra 5-6 shows this year from doing a better job than the last sound engineer did - according to the client. Isn't the client always 90% right? ** laughs out loud **

[mervaka]

I just picked up a new happy client last night, also from doing a 'better' job! :D quite a turnaround considering they were umming and arring at my prices beforehand..

 

but this dilution is so true, especially down here. because few people have the money for a good job to be done, they will always be hunting out the lowest bidder.

 

also, I'm always having clients trying to command their price to me (ie, I have ~£0 and want THIS MUCH SOUND), but I'm just turning away from those people now. they can have their cheap cowboy sound from someone else.

[jenn]

Cue the production manager who told me last weekend that he wants 3 lapel radio mics for his show, an amp that is better than the venue's existing one, and foldback for the cast and MD - and has £20 to spend on the Sound budget... Ummmm... Yeah... :D

[alex_kyuss]

Its a very odd little world we all work in! I disagree with people saying the punters don't care. I do alot of work in a 250 cap club were the owners and the punters really care about how it sounds, and will tell you if its not up to there standard to the shock of some guest engineers. I am only fairly young and inexperienced but recently I have crewed at some big gigs with some good bands with really bad engineers, for the money and scale they are working on should be doing a lot better and the crowd have noticed. One thing I have noticed with good engineers is that there never happy until there mix is CD quality and thats how I try and mix ( I havn't got there yet but Im trying)