D&B C4

[waster]

Hi all,

 

Am doing some research into new sound system options for a hire company, D&B keeps coming up. There is lots of C4 on the second hand market and its a rider sound system which is becoming increasingly important.

 

The B2's are recomended to be paired up with 4 C4 Subs. Would you be better off with one B2 per two C4 subs for dance music?

 

Secondly I've read that C4 is viewed by some not to be a good ground stack system and that the tops need to be flown. Often events are in places where it isnt possible to fly the PA. How well does C4 work when deployed as a groundstack? Also what is the flyware like to use?

 

The System size would be upto 8 C4 Tops, 8 C4 Subs and 4 B2 Subs. With two amp racks with 2 P1200's one with a C4 Top card and one with a C4 sub card and an A1. Then a third amp rack with 2 A1's in. With flyware to fly C4 three wide.

 

What are some configurations people have used with C4 in venues upto 2000? Both flown and ground stacked.

 

Thanks

[Rob_Beech]

Hi,

 

I'll start by giving my opinion on C4, it is in my opinion by far one of the nicest sounding systems on the market today. And for a box that's over 20 years old that's really not bad going.

 

It does however have its limitations as does any system.

 

It's a box / set of boxes I've used hundreds / thousands of times for alsorts of work and I've been pleased on nearly all occasions.

 

1 B2 per 4 C4Subs is usually more than enough for most material, however if you really want you could go for 1 B2 per 2 C4 Subs but I'd think with these in infra mode this would be too much sub energy for most things.

 

C4 loves to be flown, it uses the MAN flying system (same as the flood/flash and the Martin W8 and others) and when you get the hang of it, it's not all that bad to fly. It does work on the ground, I've had very pleasant results with it ground stacked, the main issue you get (and it is no different to any other box) is how they sound close up. They don't sound pleasant in the near field and if you've got any considerable distance to cover then groundstacked boxes are always going to cause problems. They'll be far too loud at the front, and not loud enough at the back.

 

The other issue with groundstacking is the stack height. Getting it right is a bit tricky, there are not many configurations that get the ideal height. A b2 laid down, then a pair of C4 subs on top then C4 tops on top is not high enough from the ground, but put in 4 c4 subs in a 2x2 square, and whilst high enough, it's near impossible to stack safely.

 

All in all, flying is better. The config you state is common (though more common with just 2 B2's), though flyware 3 wide causes a few issues with the number of tops you have. The last time I configured it like that, I used 3 tops on the top row and sub top sub on the next row for the centre top to cover the stalls then 2 c4 subs and a b2 on the floor (all per side). It all depends on what you have to cover. 3x2 arrays are common, as are 2x2. Don't be afraid to put the subs in the air where you don't "need" a top, but also, flyware dependant, don't be afraid to leave a gap in the array, or have a dead box if the flyware wont support gaps. One thing that really annoys me is where people array boxes (particularly things like c4) and fire a box straight at a concrete pillar because that is how the array lies..........unplug it!!!

 

 

All in all, a good box, but like with all things, you really need to know how to use it.

 

 

Rob

[mr_towers]

Room dependant, you can get away with ground stacking C4. I've done it on a couple of occasions, but as these things nearly always go you're better flying your tops. The good thing about the flyware is that it also works for C7s (subs and tops iirc) and Maxes, so if you need fills or whatever you can tack those on the end. The flyware isn't bad at all (the calculator thing's a bit outdated though), and there are plenty of people with C4 kicking around, so subhiring and getting extras if you need it won't be hard.

 

Don't know the company's location, but do have a look at what other people have too. D&B is very appropriate up here in Scotland for example, because nearly everyone carries it!

[Chris Adam]

One thing to remember with the C4 is that it's a very narrow box (35 degrees) so definately look at the area you have to cover. I unfortunately have been left with a system to narrow for my venue due to the specifiers lack of knowledge when it was installed a few years back. I've "topped up" the system with C7's though, which works quite well. In my opinion, the C7 is a much nicer box with a lot more warmth than the C4.

I ground stack my system, but always load strap it as if you go 4 high, it's a bit wibbley wobbley. Flying is a much better option though, I just don't have the weight capacity.

I'm aware that wigwam are selling off a chunk of their D&B kit so they might be worth a look. (If I remember right it's Chris Hill who is the contact there). Loads of hire companies have it too.

As always I'd recomend getting your protractor out and doing a details layout to see exactly how much of it you'll need to cover your venue. If your venue is wide, but not very deep then I would recommend trying something else (L'acoustics Arcs are the boxes that have never failed me). The guys at D&B are always happy to help with anything you need.

[Matt Riley]

D&B C4 is great stuff, but does have it's limitations. We've got 4 stacks (stack=top+sub in d&b land) with 1 b2 a side underneath. Because of our venue height (ceiling to floor is less than 20ft) we always ground stack, putting the PA on 4ft 4x4 risers if we're doing the 2 tops a side thing and just going B2:C4sub x4: C4top x4 if we're hiring in 4 extra stacks (a fairly regular thing). Ratchet straps become very important, and in the near field they sound...harsh compared to, say arcs or aspect, but if you're going for that rock n roll thing then that should be fine, and if not, then I've always found they can be tamed relatively easily with a decent graphic.

 

All in all, go for it, but also, while 8 stacks would be the ideal size rig to buy (and should set you back about 20k all up) it might struggle to cover 2000 people without some extra help. We'll normally use that size rig to cover about 800 people which it does well, as a quick benchmark. And you'll also find that the B2 subs work really well in full range (ie not infra) mode under other boxes as well. Which can be useful when you have to subhire in a small line array for a field gig or whatever. Ours are spending next week under some DVdosc!

 

M

[waster]

Thanks for all the replys so far.

 

One of the mian venues is about 20m wide by 35m deep. Stage is about 10m wide.

 

Options to ground stack would be 2 B2's on thier sides, then 4 subs on top and then 4 tops on top of that. Would probably stack it on litedeck with 2ft legs on it.

 

OR

 

Stack two wide two high C4 subs with the same again in tops on top. Again on the staging but with the B2's underneath. (need to check they would fit!) Or maybe with just one B2 a side next to the C4 stack vertically.

 

Flying wise with 3 wide we were thinking have the extra tops and subs as front fills.

 

Thoughts?

[Chris Adam]

If your venue is 20m wide, then a 2-way stack would not cover the horizontal axis. It's typically a long throw (or high Q) box which is why it has such a narrow dispersion. As mentioned before, get a protractor out and do a scaled drawing. You will be very surprised how little or your venue you'll fill.

The QMU is 18m wide and with a 2-way ground stack, I only just cover the centre area, hence the reason for buying C7s to fill the gaps. Funnily enough, our stage is 10m wide too. If I use the 2-way stack, I have to angle the inside boxes right in to cover the centre of the room - the pit area if it's a metal gig - which is where a good proportion of your punters will stand.

It's a cracking box, but it's not a near field, wide dispersion box.

 

edit: oh, and I often put the tops on staging with B2s underneath and that does work fine, but I usually have to go three wide with the tops.

[waster]

Thanks I'll get sketching :-)

[i_hate_fisicks]

You mention dance music in the original post. Will you be doing a lot of that? If your work is mainly bands and stuff, then C4 is a great box. If you're mainly doing dance music, I'd look elsewhere. I don't think the system has enough grunt/agression/(insert other fairly meaningless adjective here) for dance music. I once saw a stage at a dance festival kitted out with a fair old pile of D&B, and it sounded pathetic compared to the other stages with Funktion 1 and Nexo on.

[waster]

Surely a system of the right size, which is setup and configured properly for a venue should sound fine regardless of program material?

[i_hate_fisicks]

Well that is normally the view I take. I don't generally hold with this system for this and that system for that, but D&B and dance music, just doesn't seem right. The amplifiers are quite small remember, which is not a problem for theatre or classical or even rock and roll - as it does still go loud - efficiency and all that. But with dance music, pounding all the time, it just doesn't cut it, and the tops sound too nice - not cutting and agressive enough for dance music types. Just my opinion. By all means try it and see for yourself.

[Ben Lawrance]

I've heard a D12 called a lot of things, but small is not one of them.

 

I've never had one run out of breath, even on B2 duty.

[Chris Adam]

D&B C4 is totally fine for Dance music. I've used our system with many a high profile DJ / Drum and Bass act / Dance act etc and it's always come up ok. You do need a good bit of B2 action as the C4 subs don't quite go low enough, but you've looked at that already. It's not the nicest system on the market (my opinion obviously), but it's ahuge amount better than other rigs I've come across.

If the OP was looking for an opinion, plus a list of alternatives then I would happily suggest - Nexo Alpha, Funktion One, L'acoustics, Turbosound and Martin boxes as all of a decent standard.

In terms of the Amps, I too have never had any problems with any of the D&B range. I still come across the E-pacs (Mk1) that sound as good as day one. I also don't believe that the tops sound "too nice". I don't believe there is such a thing as "too nice" even for dance music where clarity is just as important.

[larrisbarris]

The Prodigy are a dance band and they swear by D&B that's all they use. I did a warm up gig with them the other day and they reinforced the house function 1 rig with C4, C7 and the new J series sub this was mainly for onstage monitors. It was so loud it set my van alarm off parked 15m outside the venue. So I was well impressed. The owner of the function rig had his jaw open so that says it all for me. If you have the budget get the new J series sub absolutely awesome.

[RGSD]

Have a look at the OPUS range, it's has a distinctly clearer sound quality as well as a longer and wider throw. You could half the amount of OPUS you would need compared to a D&B system!

 

Get a demo! http://www.opusaudio.com/