Recording/playback of 24 channels from a live mix, for training

[Solstace]

Hi everyone!

 

I've been having a think about training my sound team - and one of the things they've consistently asked for is some repeatable theory-based training based on multi-track recordings, so they can play with the desk (or even in software at home) to experiment with different mix techniques and take things to the next level up from "can I kinda hear everything?"

 

I want to record as many channels as I can of a live mix, so I can then play those channels through a desk either in the venue, or in a controlled environment for teaching and practical purposes. I have a budget of around £1000, and I would like a standalone unit that:

 

• Records digitally to Hard Disc
  
• Is capable of running 24 simultaneous channels of balanced line-level analogue input or output per pass
  
• Is able to easily export audio data to a Mac, running OS X 10.5.1 or later
  
• Is easy for non-"technicians" to understand
  

 

Two candidates spring to mind:

 

1) Alesis ADAT HD24. In this situation I can buy it with a Fireport, but have yet to hear from the manufacturer as to whether the Fireport software is compatible with OS X 10.5 or later. The network interface (FTP over 10M Ethernet connection) has proved slow and unreliable in the past, with no apparent interest from Alesis in coming up with a fix. BUT - since I do already know the machine there's no learning curve - but at least the manual is relatively well-written.

 

2) Fostex D2424LV. I've not had experience with this machine - but a look at the manual tells me the machine is near-impregnable! No really, I'm sure the machine's great, but if the manual confuses things more than it helps then I'm afraid the product has failed before leaving the starting blocks in my view. I gather from "due research" that many consider the Fostex to sound better than the Alesis unit it competes with. I also see that despite being fitted with an (optional) 100M Ethernet port and an onboard FTP server, the data rates and stability are little better than the Alesis would deliver. Which leaves HD or DVD-RAM as the officially-supported export media - and when I look at the file systems used (for HD) or the proprietary nature of DVD-RAM media, I don't know I can find much to recommend the unit.

 

More generally, I worry that these machines have both been on the market for some time, and there's nothing apparently in the pipeline to replace them any time soon. Which ought to be a good thing - except that they appear to use the now near-obsolete EIDE hard drives, rather than the SATA drives (mostly) used in the rest of the world. Also the products have been out for long enough that their respective FTP server issues ought to have been solved by now - but I'm not seeing much evidence of this being the case.

 

My inner-self is telling me to go with the Alesis, and with it purchase a couple of extra drives and a Fireport. Trouble is, either solution has so many compromises that I'm finding it tough to recommend either machine for the applications we have in mind. The only thing that's forcing me here is that there's very little in the "new, off-the-shelf" market in the way of audio interfaces for Mac or PC that offer 24 channels of simultaneous analogue I/O without needing external interfaces - which add more complexity and time. For our usual sound guys and their training requirements, the ability to take a standalone unit and plug it into a desk and get going immediately (either for recording or playback) is a must.

 

Our procurement policy is to always buy brand-new to ensure the best warranty support - so ebay or other second-hand options are not appropriate.

 

Thoughts anyone?

[Bobbsy]

The Mac issues I can't help with (but from a recent poll on this board you should get some support). However, there are a lot of HD24 fans here in the Blue Room, one of them being me. Assuming you can get satisfactory answers to your Mac-specific questions, I'd say go for it, especially as you know the unit already.

 

Working with a PC, I've had very good results and few (if any) problems over a period of years.

 

Bob

[Solstace]

Thanks Bob.

 

Apologies: A look through my previous topics tells me I've asked actually the very same set of questions before - and the thinking was overwhelmingly Alesis-centric - nobody (other than in my original post) even mentioned the Fostex unit.

 

So, the only one that remains then is:

 

Is the Fireport software compatible with OS X 10.5?

 

Strictly speaking, for the purposes of this project I'm not interested in the open-source software that's available (and moved on a long, long way since I last saw it, six months ago). It doesn't have manufacturer's support, nor is such support delivered as part of a warranty on any hardware. From an engineering perspective I'm not the only one here at work who would object strongly to relying on anything other than manufacturer support (such that it is, in this case).

[Dave]

I think there are also 24 track HDD recorders from Mackie and Tascam.

 

I've no experience of these or the ones you mention, but I once enquired about hiring a 24 track for a client and was told to avoid the Tascam as it's apparently rather unstable.

 

I spoke to FX Rentals and they were very helpful as they have several different makes in stock, so why not give them a call - I'm sure they'd be happy to give you the benefit of their wisdom. They hire them out and I'm sure they know what all the problems are.

 

Regarding PC interfaces, AFAIK you will need external boxes to do 24 tracks. I know someone who uses multiple MOTU interfaces and has no problems with 24 or even more tracks.

[paulears]

As an HD24 owner, I'd suggest NOT buying a hardware recorder of any kind - it would be cheaper now to just get a 24 channel firewire audio AD and go straight to your mac - I wish I'd done this - I bought mine because I'd been brought up on ADATs, so the HD24 seemed an obvious progression and had real knobs and buttons, but every project I have recorded with it has been imported to my music computer, so most of the features on the HD24 have never, ever been used.

 

Although I've never dismantled my a/ds from the studio, I could have taken them all out and recorded direct and saved all that messing about with file transfers.

[Mr.Si]

I know that if I went down the route you're talking about (I have thought about doing exactly the same thing as you a number of times for my church's team),

then I would go down the route of a MOTU 24I/O unit. I believe that it connects via a lead to a PCI card in the base unit of your computer. The next best thing I thought, would be a couple of MOTU travellers.

 

I used to have a Fostex D2424LV because at the time the file management was better than the Alesis' machine.

However, the Alesis machine supports all HDDs rather than just a few Western Digital Caviar E-IDE drives.

I sold my machine 'cause I didn't use it enough.

 

So yes, get a MOTU 24I/O unit (or other manufacturer's equivalent) and use that. IBM Compatible PCs and/or Apple MACs can easily handle 24 simulataneous audio tracks these days. Back in the day when I had my Hard Disk Recorder, I don't think I trusted computers to be stable enough.

 

</My Thoughts>

[Rob_Beech]

I use my HD24XR with 3 ADAT PCI cards. Though I have mixed a few things down using a desk and outboard.

 

Just my comment on how I do it.

[waster]

Just picked up an Alesis HD24 for a similar reason as well. Happy with it so far. I have no plans of transfering data from it to a computer to mix it down at the moment though. However I am thinking long term of offering it to bands as a service when I mix them and doing a rough mix for them, propably just through a desk and outboard though. I think the HD24 is great for live recording as it offers plug and play usability and from reviews I've read and my experience so far seems rock solid. If you want to have the files easily avalible on a computer after recording though I would say that a soundcard into a decent laptop would be the way to go though.

[Solstace]

Well the primary purpose of the machine is to have (as standalone as possible) a simple setup that can easily be bolted in and run in record or playback mode by someone who isn't already familiar with Cubase or similar. The secondary need is to be able to get at that material and transfer it to a computer, so the files can be redistributed for home working/learning. Perhaps mixing the odd CD or two if we feel so drawn.

 

The MOTU 24I/O unit is a good option if I had a PC or Mac Pro I could throw a PCI-x card at - thing is we use entirely laptops or iMacs at work, and I can't find a Firewire interface for the 24I/O. Does one even exist?

 

Otherwise I can't find a firewire interface that does 24 simultaneous channels of analogue in/out, without jumping to multiple boxes or a Cardbus solution - that will only work with our one MacBook Pro.

 

So for our situation, I still think hardware is best... for now...

 

Any other ideas on these lines?

[mervaka]

another option would be a quad ADAT interface, such as the maudio profire lightbridge or the presonus firestudio lightpipe. yes, you'll need A/D interfaces to go with them, but its a laptop friendly solution!

[jamesperrett]

Given your budget and spec, I can't really see any alternative to the Alesis box. They're about the only people left making a stand-along multitrack recorder in this price range. I notice that some of the higher end digital desk manufacturers are starting to build recording facilities into their desks for just the reasons you describe.

 

Cheers

 

James.