Powered mixer recommendations please

[smurf77]

I'm a vocalist in a 5 piece band and have been using a Laney 6 channel PA head with power RMS 300 watts mono. It has served me well but I'm looking to upgrade. So I'm aiming to buy a powered mixer for vocals. Maybe later, (and only occasionally), the drummer may mic up his kit, so one with at least 8 channels is preferable. We play to a capacity ranging from 50 - 450 people and I need something that is simple to set up & operate. A separate amp & mixer is not really ideal. Can anyone advise me on something decent & above all, reliable. I have been to my local music store and they have Peavey, Yamaha, Phonic, Behringer, Alesis, Gigrack 1000 & Laney. My budget is a maximum of £500.

 

I am not that familiar with RMS at 4 ohms etc so don't want to go in the store and get told the mixer is 1000w and later find out that power is mono/divided between 2 speakers and 2 monitors or something along those lines. I have one powered monitor and one passive, with passive speakers I will be looking to upgrade at a later date.Thanks for any help.

[lightsource]

At the 450 capacity, you'll struggle with you're budget.

 

It would be helpful to know what speakers you're using.

 

Allen & Heath and Yamaha do some great powered mixers. Well worth looking at, and some are within you're budget.

[smurf77]

We've been gigging to 300+ with the Laney 300w mono. I am not talking about Wembley arena sized venues, just packed clubs. More often than not we are performing in the smaller venues but I want to have the facility for the bigger places.

Current speakers are Laney CT15, power handling: 400w at 8 ohms.

Can you recommend which model Yamaha?

Thanks.

[Sirch Sound]

As has been said above, your going to struggle to do 450 with the amps in a powerd mixer. Have a search on here for powerd mixers, there has been quite a long descussion on them very recently. When you say something easy to set up and operate, in the longrun a seperate amp and mixer is going to be alot simpler, it gives you so much more versitility than having everything in one case. It will allow you to use different amps and systems with a mixer your familer with using. Yes you could do that with a powerd mixer but it means you have to lug the thing around with you even though you dont want to use the amp. There are so many more advantages of running a seperate amp and mixer, and its really got no dissadvantages to a powerd mixer.

 

It allows you to rackmount the amps to keep them protected.

It allows you to split the weight to make it easier to carry.

It gives you seperate gain controlls on the amp, which alot of powerd mixers dont have.

It gives you alot more product choices

It gives you more versitility and ease to upgrade the size of the system.

It allows you to put the amps beside the stack, and therefore reducing the amount of speaker cable you have to run.

You can get alot better quality equipment, as there is alot more to chose from.

 

If you guys can think of anymore, which im sure there are plenty, please add to the list.

 

Oh and it would also help if we new the size/power handing of your speakers to mate the amps/mixer to it.

 

Cheers

Rich

[BigYinUK]

I think you're really between a rock and a hard place on this one smurf77 and I sympathise as we're pretty much in the same situation.

 

A "rule of thumb" that has served me well over the many years I've been doing PA's for bands (be it as an amateur not a business) is 10W per head of PA and yes, I know its the SPL you're trying to achieve that counts. but as a rough guide it has always worked for me.

 

Using that formula you're looking at needing a PA of up to about 5Kw, so you're budget is definitely not going to do it.

 

I hear what you say that you've played gigs with 300 odd with your Laney PA and I don't want to appear rude but I doubt it sounded very nice in the crowd unless you're OK with playing at very low SPLs.

 

There's no point in miking up your drums if the PA won't get them to a level significantly louder than the drumkit itself which typical powered mixers of 500w/1000w (ish) definitely won't.

 

In your situation I'd use the Laney for the small gigs and hire in for the larger venues. Financially that would work unless you're doing a lot of bigger gigs in which case you'll have to find some more money from somewhere.

 

Sorry if that's not what you wanted to hear but I expect it'll be pretty much the same story from everyone here.

[weatherhead]

I will second the view that a powered mixer probably isn't the best option here, given your variation in audience size. For 450 people you are looking at a very very meaty amp as has been said, and not the sort that you'd want to lug around to a small pub gig for 50 people. It really doesn't add that much to the complication, to be honest. At £500 you will struggle to get a powered mixer that can output the kind of wattage you need for a 450 person venue. In fact, I don't think I can think of a powered mixer at any budget that will suffice.

 

An average drummer playing away will produce about the output of a 450w power amp on his own, which means that if you're seriously considering sound reinforcement for drums you will need a LOT more power than that.

As an absolute bare minimum I reckon you're looking at needing a 2kw amp.

[smurf77]

Hi, thanks for the help.

I did come across a Yamaha powered mixer 500w + 500w but took advice given to me on here and other sites as well as a tech guy from Digital Village. So, I went bargain hunting and shelled out a bit more than anticipated and got the following:

Yamaha MG166CX mixer

2 x Mackie SRM450 active speakers

2 x Mackie speaker holdalls

Shure SM58 mic

3 Professional XLR cables

Total £900

This system is purely for vocals unless we get bigger venues where the 2 guitarists, bassist and drummer have to mic up. then we will borrow 18" subwoofers.

Does that sound ok?

[Ben Langfeld]

The 450s aren't going to be much use to you with a full band in a large venue. Unfortunately, what you have to accept in this business is that the cheap stuff doesn't do big gigs well. At all. Also, making a system bigger doesn't mean multiplying the number of cabs, it means replacing them with a more appropriate solution. It's an expensive game, and there's not really a way round it.

[smurf77]

Large venue? I would hope they have their own PA system!

We have played to a capacity of 350 but that doesn't mean the venue is huge; just a packed audience. The 300w Laney was fine for the vocals; with master & channel level never above halfway. Probably a lot to do with a quality singer in the band! I suppose having great gear isn't much good if the singer is rubbish, or the band for that matter.

The new set up is purely for the vocals and the Mackie's do state: "for audiences from 125 - 375". So, I doubt they could emblazon that on the speakers if it wasn't correct....otherwise they'd be done for misrepresentation of goods.

I guess if we were to perform at a huge place that didn't have a sufficient PA system, we'd hire one and add the cost onto the booking fee.

Out of interest, what size venue does everybody play to warrant 1k-2k RMS?

[weatherhead]

I know this argument seems like rubbish, and is a bit of a "hifi" enthusiast argument rather than a soundman argument, but often power output isn't always the full issue especially at the budget end of the market. I have found through my own experiences that a pair of mackie SRM450's can often outgun in real terms the sound you get from a co-called "1kw" amp from a cheapo make + some generic passive speakers.

 

The SRM450s are wonderful, wonderful speakers for the price, size, power etc.

 

p.s. there is a venue in a town near me that has a few rehearsal rooms, a big concert room and a recording studio. The concert room only holds maybe 150 people at a push. When I was talking to the owner (he's the dad of one of my friends), he said "how much p.a. power would you put in here, and how much monitoring do you reckon". I said "oh well, probably about 150 - 200w of monitoring and probably 450-500w of p.a, if you're not miking up the kit. He said "guess how much power we have in? 2kw of monitoring and 8kw of FOH". I was speechless. Anyway they know what they're doing, all the sound at the gigs is top notch. I still feel that's a little over spec'd mind you. It's all relative I guess ; do you need to mic up a kit to these people, or just vocals? Do you need to deal with thrash metal signals? that kind of thing.

[smurf77]

No, it's intention is for one lead vocal and the occasional single BV. We are not a metal, thrash, heavy rock, punk or overly loud band either.

But I thought if we did need to mic up the 2 guitars, bass & drums or just drums all we would need to do is add the Mackie subwoofers.

If that's not the case, I guess hiring a powered amp and speakers and adding the cost to the booking fee for the occasional larger venue would be better. I don't particularly want to cart around a load of gear that will only get used now and again.

I was delighted with what I thought was a bargain price and now am wondering if I've blown hard earned cash on something others feel is insufficient.

[BigYinUK]

What you've bought will be quite adequate for a vocal PA and is good value if you look at the individual prices of the units you have. Playing to a couple of hundred, then adding the subs might do the job as long as you're not attempting to get high SPLs. Unlikely you'd need to mic up the whole kit anyway unless (a) you want that classic rock "mic'd up HUGE kit" sound or (b) you're playing in a large venue. Probably just the kick would give you what you need. What we do for the bigger venues is dry hire in a big FOH. Shop around for deals on that. I pay 80 quid for the KV2 which is admittedly well below the market rate but just shows it is possible to get great deals if you put in the legwork.

 

I totally see where the chap weatherhead talks about is coming from. 8kw might seem massive but it is that overhead that will give you the clarity and quality.

 

FOH wise, we use 2 x Mackie SR1530s for small venues < 150 people and for bigger venues dry hire in a KV2 ES rig which is 2.5k per side (but imo easily equivalent to 10kw of Electrovoice etc). That does the job < 500-600 heads. We normally mic up the kick and snare at all but tiny gigs, big gigs and the whole lot gets mic'd. Having said that we are a heavy rock band and do play at quite high SPLs (around 110db).

 

Monitor wise we have 4.8kw of amplification which is LOUD and almost invariably we have to turn that down but it does really help us play tight as we can hear what's going on.

 

I'm sure your Mackie's will sound much better than the Laney's.

[smurf77]

Aha, my next question:

I would like better monitors.

Realistic suggestions please.

 

Check out the band:

www.myspace.com/redglory1

[johndenim]

Can I please point out that rms is a very rough figure as far as volume is concerned.

It totally depend on the cabs you have, I could have a 10,000w rms amp and run it on some sony hifi speakers, get the point?

 

In reality 1000w is only TWICE as loud as 100w, its the quality of the sound that makes the difference.

 

Also a bit OT but put me down for the powered mixer.

You can do as much as an unpowered seperate system can do and more.

 

Why do they sell?

 

Example: solo act.

 

requirements: two small speakers, light enough for a dainty female, solution: 12" full range, passive.

mixer/amp: a passive mixer, slant fightcase(to house mixer and amp) and an A-B class 19" rackmount amp,(with heavy transformers) all together weighing in at about 45kilos.

 

Mixer/amp: Powered mixer, d or h class, oh, and thats it, about 20 kilos.

Take your pick granny................

 

 

PS like the band. :)

 

EDIT: a powered mixer can exceed 1300w a side if you run at 2 ohms, is that not enough for vocals?

[Sirch Sound]

Can I please point out that rms is a very rough figure as far as volume is concerned.

It totally depend on the cabs you have, I could have a 10,000w rms amp and run it on some sony hifi speakers, get the point?

 

Not quite. The way you should quote the volume of your system is in SPL. Watts do come into it but not in the way you mentiond. Obviously the size of the amp is relative to the size of the speakers, but its not nearly as relevent as the quality of the speakers. You could have a pair of Class D 800w rms cabs that produce just as much volume as a EAW cab running on 300w rms. Its all about the efficiency of the drivers used, the ideal speaker is one that produces a very high spl whilst running on very low wattage.

 

Also a bit OT but put me down for the powered mixer.

You can do as much as an unpowered seperate system can do and more.

 

How did you work this out? If this is the case why are glastonbury not using powerd mixers?

 

There not even in the same league, infact the only times I have ever seen powerd mixers being used is by mobile DJ's and a few solo performers. Thats it. Theres a very, very good reason for this. Unless you are doing exactly the same thing every time then there useless, there far too limiting. If you have an audience range of 50 to 500 the why do you want to carry a powerd mixer with an amp big enough for a 500 size venue when theres only going to be 50 people there?

 

There is also a very, very limited choice of them. If you buy an amp and a seperate desk then it allows you to upgrade any part of the system at a later date, wether you want to go digital or whatever.

 

I have never found one pro sound tech who wants a powerd mixer, they will use them if thats the only option but they would much rather hire/ buy there preferd mixer then chenge the rest of the system for each venue.

 

requirements: two small speakers, light enough for a dainty female, solution: 12" full range, passive.

mixer/amp: a passive mixer, slant fightcase(to house mixer and amp) and an A-B class 19" rackmount amp,(with heavy transformers) all together weighing in at about 45kilos.

 

Mixer/amp: Powered mixer, d or h class, oh, and thats it, about 20 kilos.

Take your pick granny................

 

Or

 

Seperate amp system;

Mixer (Yamaha 124cx - 5kg) , amp (Crown XTi - 8.5kg) , (flightcase - 5kg)

Total Weight - 18.5kg

 

Powerd Mixer; (Allen & Heath PA20 - 24kg) , (Flightcase - 5kg)

Total Weight - 29kg

 

 

 

Rich