Amateur expenses

[karl]

I'm sure this must have been discussed before but my searches haven't turned anything up.

 

I got involved in lighting and sound with a local amateur group a few years ago. I have always worked on the basis that I will claim expenses back for things like hiring / buying kit specifically for a show. Other stuff I just absorb as being the cost of having a hobby.

 

The thing is that there are a lot of local amateur groups and an apparent shortage of people willing to do the technical stuff. Being a helpful (gullible) soul I have got involved with more and more groups. I have worked on four productions, doing lighting and/or sound, in the last six weeks. I worked out that the most recent production involved me driving a total of about 180 miles in the course of production meetings, get in, rehearsal and performances. At 30 miles to the gallon that soon adds up.

 

Then there are the other expenses which don't directly relate to individual productions for example buying bits of kit which I regularly find myself needing (strobe, decent lighting desk, etc).

 

And of course there are all those little things that you never quite get around to claiming for (often for fear of looking like a skin-flint) like batteries, packets of screws, lengths of cable, etc.

 

I don't want to go down the line of starting a business (not least because of all the paper work!) but I would like to start, at least coming close to, breaking even.

 

I was wondering how other people handle this?

 

Is charging a standard rate workable or does that effectively make you a business with all the associated issues (tax, insurance, accountancy)? Do you claim for mileage / parking costs - if so what paper work do you produce in lieu of receipts?

[Ynot]

Hmmm....

 

This is an age-old question that has many answers, none of which will always be right... <_<

 

I've been 'working' as an amateur for around 30 years, man and boy, and have worked in a number of venues and with countless different companies over those years. So hopefully I am one who can speak with confidence in my experiences.

 

When I began my amateur 'career' it was pure and simple - a hobby, and one that I enjoy (for the most part!).

The view I have always taken is that there are very few hobbies that don't cost anything.

You're a birdwatcher - you buy binoculars, outdoor clothing and boots and sometimes pay to visit bird reserves.

You're a footy fan - you buy the team colours (shirt, scarf etc), programmes and of course match tickets.

You build models - you buy the kits, the paints, the brushes, the glue etc etc.

 

That's what hobbyists are all about - and you're usually happy to spend a little on achieving satisfaction in that pursuit.

 

So why should amateur theatre be any different?

 

ANY hobby can have some element of travelling costs involved - getting to the nature reserves, the stadia, or to the shops, and theatre is no different. If I ever started to calculate how much I've spent in petrol over the years getting to rehearsals and shows......

 

BUT there is a line, albeit sometimes very wavy, which should separate what expenses you should claim back from whatever group/society you're working for - and that should really be set out by the groups involved.

 

I've been involved with some small performing societies where the finances were in a way a co-operative, in that everyone pitched in. That is true of many other groups to an extent. I turn up to a major fitup armed with the back of my estate full with toolboxes, screwboxes and power tools. Some get a LOT of use, others sit there idle if they're not needed, but the fact is that I'm prepared to use and allow them to be used by others as a matter of choice. Yes, it costs me, but I don't begrudge that cost as a rule.

 

Sure, if you go out and specifically purchase a box of screws, or lengths of timber just for a company/show, then it's generally accepted that you'll produce the receipts and get reimbursement. But petrol costs and parking wouldn't normally be covered in my book. After all, usually the reason you're AT an amateur gig is because you WANT to be, and you're broadening your horizons as a result.

 

I know that there are people who will travel further than I would to my own venue (we have a fellow Blue Roomer here who drives something like 20 or 25 miles each way to work shows and I know he sometimes feels that pinch) - it's around 5 or 6 miles home to theatre, but look at that on average as maybe 4 or 5 trips each week, and it will mount up.

 

That said, there are some companies who use our venue who offer to pay the crew. Whilst this is a nice thought, my usual response is "We're all volunteers, so we don't charge, BUT if you want to show your appreciation at the end of a show, then that's twixt you and them". I don't encourage paying am-dram crews as a rule, because that way lie problems!

 

And don't forget that if you start charging companies for your time, it puts you as an individual in a different position. a) you should declare these as taxable earnings to HMC, and b) you may give the impression that you're working as a 'professional' and people's expectations MAY go up, and often those expectations may not be realised by the individual!

 

Oh - and don't get me started on the fact that muso's get paid on virtually every amateur musical I've ever worked on!

[tokm]

Not that fluent with tax issue's as some people on here might be.. leave it all to my accountant.. so not sure if my experience's will be of any help, but in the past when I've worked for amateur companies as their LD, I'm being brought in as a freelance employee, not as a business supplying equipment and such. Any payment of equipment hire is done by the company.. to whoever I've arranged the hire with on behalf of the company. I agree a fee and what expenses they'll pay me and that's that.

 

Perhaps that's a way for you to go about things? Your not a business as such then?

 

You've not said if you charge the company for your services.. but as you mentioned hobby, I'm guessing not. These companies do sound like their aware that expenses and costs to get incurred, so could you not just agree a fixed price that covers your foreseeable expense's/costs, then you just put it down in your books as payment for the job or whatever you like, rather than expense reimbursement.. and they can put you down in their books as whatever they like.. just an expense of putting the show on?

 

Hope my comments are of some help, if not, apologies!

 

Tom

[Boggy]

It takes time and effort to sort out the money issues here, but in the long run it is worth it.

The balance that I choose is that the expenses of producing the show are covered but not my personal expenses.

 

The most important thing to me is that a deal is agreed to prior to the work being done or the money being spent! Remember that it is their money and they get to choose how they spend it. While I developed my lighting skills I also developed my negotiation skills. Many would think that this is so that I can negotiate a better deal (i.e. get more money). In reality these skills allow you to discuss the lighting and the budget with the person in charge (usually the director) to negotiate a deal that you are both happy with. This is important if you want to enjoy your hobby (and the director should be able to enjoy their hobby too).

 

At the first technical meeting I will discuss budget to get an idea of the amount of money available. I will then produce a rough quote to see if I am in the ball park. Gear can then be added or removed as the negotiation continues. In some cases this process takes ten minutes while in other cases I have re-designed the show three times over several weeks.

 

If you develop these skills, the money side will be simpler which will leave you more time and thought for your lighting.

[DaveBeattie]

I think that it also depends who you are working for. I have a "home" society that I work for on every production. For this society I only charge directly applicable expenses eg Gel. They also pick up hire costs within the agreed budget. I don't charge them for the use of my desk, mainly so that such funds are freed up to be used elsewhere. I have even been known to pick up part of the hire bill myself so that I can achieve a certain effect that might otherwise have been outside of the budget.

 

When I work for other societies it is usually by invitation. I don't charge a fee, but insist on expenses, with a cap (usually about £200 for a week's run). This covers mileage, parking etc, for which I submit logs/receipts and the society can then deal with them as they need to. I find that this level of transparency is appreciated by those that I deal with.

 

Hope this helps

 

Dave

[DSA]

Just to defend musicians for a moment - In the vast majority of cases, the musicians who are paid are professionals i.e. performing is their job and career. Ynot, are you seriously suggesting that they should offer their time for free? They will have invested a great deal of money in their chosen career and cannot seriously be expected to do freebies all the time. Sure, occasionally they may want to help a particular cause, but in general terms they must charge fees! To them it is "just another show" as part of their work, unlike any amateur group members who are very much in it for the hobby (and generally have other forms of income). I feel that certain parallels can be drawn with the "I'm doing a charity show - can anyone spare some hire kit" question which comes up on here every now and again.

 

Well that's my view anyway... (sorry if it's a little OT, but certainly worthy of discussion!)

 

And to keep this thread on track, I feel that day to day expenses (food, drink, car parking and the like) should be absorbed, but significant ones (gel, batteries, boxes of screws, mileage to collect hire kit etc.) should be charged as they should have been allowed for in a comprehensive budget. Obviously it should all be agreed before you produce the bill, however!

 

David

[Ynot]

I did say don't start me, didn't I..?

:) Suppose it was a bit of a leader...!

Just to defend musicians for a moment - In the vast majority of cases, the musicians who are paid are professionals i.e. performing is their job and career. Ynot, are you seriously suggesting that they should offer their time for free? They will have invested a great deal of money in their chosen career and cannot seriously be expected to do freebies all the time. Sure, occasionally they may want to help a particular cause, but in general terms they must charge fees! To them it is "just another show" as part of their work, unlike any amateur group members who are very much in it for the hobby (and generally have other forms of income). I feel that certain parallels can be drawn with the "I'm doing a charity show - can anyone spare some hire kit" question which comes up on here every now and again.

 

Well that's my view anyway... (sorry if it's a little OT, but certainly worthy of discussion!)

 

OK. (And yes, it IS a bit OT, but hey-ho!

Yes, I am CERTAINLY suggesting that they should play for am-dram for free.

In my 30 years of amateur shows, I would say that the VAST majority of theatre bands/orchestras have been made up of predominantly, if not 100%, NON-preofessional musicians. They tend to be school teachers, older pupils and people who've learned their instruments at school and kept it up out of interest/passion.

I'll accept that in some larger amateur organisations they MAY employ professionals, but larger doesn't always mean that they can/should/do.

 

But to answer your point, why should I NOT expect them to give their time for free? What is so special about a musician?

They have talent to play an instrument. I (and many other techs) have talent in the use of lighting desks, sound desks, running a stage, building scenery.

Musicians may have purchased their instrument(s)... Well, my tool collection probably out-costs the vast majority of normal instruments.

They have perhaps been training to play since they were small children, I might hear you cry - Well, guess what? I have most certainly spent FAR more time in the pursuit of my hobby than virtually ANY of the musos I've come across!

 

So, I'd turn the question around - why SHOULD a muso walk into a show, spend maybe 2 or 3 rehearsals in advance of the dress (if that!) then walk away at the end having pocketed a reasonable portion of an already tight budget...?

 

We have been along this route before on the BR as I recall, but it does still gall me when I think of it!

[SoLiEn]

Yes, I am CERTAINLY suggesting that they should play for am-dram for free. {snip}

Seconded,

[Stuart91]

When I began my amateur 'career' it was pure and simple - a hobby, and one that I enjoy (for the most part!).

The view I have always taken is that there are very few hobbies that don't cost anything.

You're a birdwatcher - you buy binoculars, outdoor clothing and boots and sometimes pay to visit bird reserves.

You're a footy fan - you buy the team colours (shirt, scarf etc), programmes and of course match tickets.

You build models - you buy the kits, the paints, the brushes, the glue etc etc.

 

That's what hobbyists are all about - and you're usually happy to spend a little on achieving satisfaction in that pursuit.

 

I liked this analogy, however I think it only goes so far.

 

When an amdram company puts on a show, as the "end product" of their hobby, punters are happy to pay for tickets.

If income results from a hobbyist's efforts, why shouldn't that cover some of their expenses? Or to move this to one of your examples above - if the modelmaker, having bought all the stuff, put in the time to build the model, then gives the finished model away to someone else, who resells it for a profit, we'd all think he's a mug. Is it any different if someone puts time, gear, and effort into making a show happen, and ends up out of pocket whilst there's a bumper box office?

 

(Yes I know that many, if not most, amdram shows run on very tight budgets, but it I'm thinking more of the general principle than specific examples)

[karl]

Thanks for all the replies. I'll gloss over the whole musician bit if I may, that's not a squabble I want to get involved in!

 

First I'd like to clarify a couple of points -

 

I have never charged companies for my time, nor would I want to. This is my hobby and as such I give my time for nothing.

 

To date I have never claimed for things like petrol and parking. The only things I have claimed for are expenses directly incurred in the production of a show. And I have often not claimed for every little (or not so little) item.

 

Dave's posting seems closest to my dilemma. I have two groups that I would consider to be my "home" groups. I chose to join them and actively sought to be involved in working with them. I have never had a problem with absorbing costs for shows with these groups.

 

The problem is that locally we have a lot of groups and they have fairly "incestuous" relationships with actors and directors working with multiple societies. What tends to happen is that somebody that I've worked with at one of my "home" societies will get involved in a show elsewhere and, finding they are short of technical bodies, will approach me to help. And having helped them out once I suddenly find myself being approached for all their future shows.

 

That's what hobbyists are all about - and you're usually happy to spend a little on achieving satisfaction in that pursuit.

 

And that's the point - how do you define "a little"?

 

The costs that I happily absorbed when I was doing seven or eight shows a year start to mount up quickly when the number of productions heads towards twenty odd each year. So the question becomes how much can I justify spending on my hobby and do I start charging companies something towards my costs or do I start turning down requests to help because I can't afford to do the show?

 

The other factor which has just occurred to me is that these groups aren't giving away tickets to watch these shows. In some cases they are charging as much as, if not more than, comparable sized professional shows. (Edit - Stuart beat me to it, I must learn to type faster!).

 

Anyway, thanks for your thoughts I shall ponder on the subject some more.

[Nick S]

They have perhaps been training to play since they were small children, I might hear you cry - Well, guess what? I have most certainly spent FAR more time in the pursuit of my hobby than virtually ANY of the musos I've come across!

 

Perhaps, but there's also an argument that musicians can spend considerably more money being trained than you might have done in the pursuit of your hobby. To put it this way - the amount of money I actually had to spend to get to a professional level for stagecraft is far, far less than what I spent to become a semi-decent keyboardist.

 

I'm not saying that musicians should be paid for amateur gigs (on the whole, I'm not sure it's fair if other talent goes unrewarded), but offering an explanation for why that might be the case. Certainly the only amateur shows that I work on that pay for musos are shows requiring obscure instrumentalists and talent (and I myself have gigged on musicals for free).

[Ynot]

They have perhaps been training to play since they were small children, I might hear you cry - Well, guess what? I have most certainly spent FAR more time in the pursuit of my hobby than virtually ANY of the musos I've come across!

 

Perhaps, but there's also an argument that musicians can spend considerably more money being trained than you might have done in the pursuit of your hobby.

 

Actually, the comment you've quoted there from me refers to the TIME spent on my hobby compared to time spent on instrumental practice. There will of course be those who are so dedicated they spend every waing hour practicing their piano/violin etc (who are more likely to want to have a musical career) but equally there are many (and I'd say many MORE in the amateur field) who spend LESS time than they might judging by the quality of some of them...

[Jivemaster]

In am dram some people do it as their hobby and spend money on it as their hobby. If you are being "Used" as a technician BEYOND what you accept as reasonable as a hobby, then ensure that all the direct costs are met, things you buy or hire BUT you must make your policy clear to the society before you start the working, then they can chose to engage you or not. Suddenly passing the treasurer a stack if bills for remuneration late in the run may upset people and even reflect back down the other societies for whom you work.

[Ynot]

Meanwhile, back on the OP...

That's what hobbyists are all about - and you're usually happy to spend a little on achieving satisfaction in that pursuit.

 

And that's the point - how do you define "a little"?

We can't.

You are the only one who can decide whether your hobby is costing you more than you expect. (I know mine frequently DOES, by the way, but that's another story! :) )

 

The point is you need to be clear when you start out with ANY company where your boundaries are. Most, if not all, of the groups who use my venue would be quite happy to front any costs incurred by individuals for any production and wouldn't expect anyone to go out of pocket for direct expenses. However, once you start the ball rolling in the direction of claiming for petrol & parking, for example, where does it stop?

 

Many tech's probably attend a handful of rehearsals at best - some none till the tech/dress, as they're not really needed til then. But the cast have perhaps been rehearsing for 3 or 4 months, often 2 or 3 times a week. If every member of the company suddenly put in a mileage claim and parking receipts, the majority of am dram companies would never be able to afford it. The way I look at it is why should we as technicians be different to the actors in this respect? In the same way (in that back off-topic topic) as why should part-time muso's be any different...?

[Wuddy]

>SNIP<

The costs that I happily absorbed when I was doing seven or eight shows a year start to mount up quickly when the number of productions heads towards twenty odd each year.

>SNIP<

 

I suppose by twenty odd you mean more than twenty productions a year? That's not a hobby that's a job.

 

Considering a couple of rehearsal attendances, get in, technical, dress, performances, get out, you must be looking at ten days min per production.