Newbie question

[simonbirdsey]

Hi,

 

This is kind of a follow on from the Stage box thread. The speakers that we have are Yamaha S1151V and the connection is jack rather than phono. I want to move the mixing position to the back of the hall, around 20m away from the speakers.

 

I've been advised that it would be a bad idea to have the mixer more than 10m from the speakers, as it will result in a consirable loss of quality. The solution that I was given was to purchase an amp. Something like this http://www.soundslive.co.uk/product~name~Y...00S~ID~2282.asp

 

or this http://www.soundslive.co.uk/product~name~B...500~ID~2998.asp

 

Can anyone corroberate this information or offer any advice? We have a powered mixer but, again, I'd have to have a look at it to tell you the make and the model.

 

Any help gratefully recieved.

 

Si

[bruce]

hey - we're always kind

 

Ideally you want to keep your speaker cables relatively short, to minimise power loss in the cables, so you want the amp near the speakers.

a bad idea to have the mixer more than 10m from the speakers, as it will result in a considerable loss of quality

 

Personally, I doubt you'd notice the difference between 10m and 20m in that setup, as long as you're using decent cable - at least 1.5mm and ideally 2.5.

 

If you're on a budget, the CPC 2.5mm stuff is pretty good, and costs about 70 pounds for 100m.

 

And swapping the jack connections for Speakons may be worthwhile - jacks have a relatively small contact area. speakons also tend to be more reliable.

[Simon Lewis]

The external amp route is OK (and is often suggested when you need to significanlty increase the output power of the system, and the internal amp isn't up to it, or it is needed to (say) power monitors). I presume ( to keep the advice consistant ) that the cable to each speaker from such a new amp won't exceed 10m?!

 

In reality, although it does help to keep speaker leads reasonably short, in many cases they have to be long enogh to reach the things! Consider a flown line array - the cables to this may be more than 15m or 20m long.

 

What is worth doing is to make / buy a decent set of speaker leads - something in the 2.5mm^2 or 4mm^2 cross sectional area (if your connectors will accept this diameter cable). This will reduce any voltage drop in your cable and help to maintain a good damping factor. This is a fair bit cheaper than a new amp - if the present one is otherwise sufficient for your needs.

 

Simon

 

edit... must type faster than Bruce ;-)

[simonbirdsey]

hey - we're always kind

 

Ideally you want to keep your speaker cables relatively short, to minimise power loss in the cables, so you want the amp near the speakers.

 

However, for the setup you've got, it shouldn't be a huge problem as long as you use a reasonably heavy speaker cable. If you're on a budget, the CPC 2.5mm stuff is pretty good, and costs about 70 pounds for 100m.

 

And swapping the jack connections for Speakons may be worthwhile - jacks have a relatively small contact area. speakons also tend to be more reliable.

 

Hi Bruce,

 

I'll try not to appear too dumb, but are you saying that I could buy lengths of the CPC 2.5mm cable to go from the desk to the amp and from the amp to the speakers with Speakon connections and they would work ok with my speakers as they are?

[Sirch Sound]

To be honest a 20m run wont have that much resistance. I constantly do runs of this length, its not that you will lose quality, or at least a noticeable amount for your size of speakers, but that you lose volume. Again though, a 20m run will not affect you that much. Yes it is beter to hae the amps closer to the speakers, however I would not advise buying another amp just for a 20m run. I have not read your other thread about stage boxes so this could have already been coverd but you WILL NOT be able to run the power of your amp down the multicore, it will melt everything! Make sure you run 2 seperate speaker cables instead. If you are going to use 20m runs make sure your cores are around 2.5mm square.

 

So basically you want to have XLR cables going from you mixer to your amplifier, microphone cables are fine for this purpose. Then what bruce is saying is to change the conections on your speakers to be speakon, as these are alot safer than jack connectors. Imagine if you plug your cables into your amp and not into your speakers, and your amp is already powerd up, or you turn the power on, you then have 240v at the end of a metal connector, so anyone who picks up the connector instantly gets a load of power through there hand, more than enough to be fatal. Speakon connectors do not allow this, you will have to try very hard to electrocute yourself with a speakon connector. Anyway the 2.5mm cable will run between your amplifier and your speakers, as this is the cable that will carry all of the power to your speaker.

 

Hope this helps.

Rich

[simonbirdsey]

The external amp route is OK (and is often suggested when you need to significanlty increase the output power of the system, and the internal amp isn't up to it, or it is needed to (say) power monitors). I presume ( to keep the advice consistant ) that the cable to each speaker from such a new amp won't exceed 10m?! In reality, although it does help to keep speaker leads reasonably short, in many cases they have to be long enogh to reach the things! Consider a flown line array - the cables to this may be more than 15m or 20m long. What is worth doing is to make / buy a decent set of speaker leads - something in the 2.5mm^2 or 4mm^2 cross sectional area (if your connectors will accept this diameter cable). This will reduce any voltage drop in your cable and help to maintain a good damping factor. This is a fair bit cheaper than a new amp - if the present one is otherwise sufficient for your needs.Simonedit... must type faster than Bruce ;-)

Hi Simon,We're currently not using an external amp at all. We're going straight out from the mixer to the speakers. We could go just over 10m from the mixer to the amp and then just over 10m again from the amp to the speakers. To state the obvious, I'm presuming that we'd mount the amp in a rack which we'd keep part way down the length of the hall. I'd just be a bit concerned about the audience messing with it.Si

To be honest a 20m run wont have that much resistance. I constantly do runs of this length, its not that you will lose quality, or at least a noticeable amount for your size of speakers, but that you lose volume. Again though, a 20m run will not affect you that much. Yes it is beter to hae the amps closer to the speakers, however I would not advise buying another amp just for a 20m run. I have not read your other thread about stage boxes so this could have already been coverd but you WILL NOT be able to run the power of your amp down the multicore, it will melt everything! Make sure you run 2 seperate speaker cables instead. If you are going to use 20m runs make sure your cores are around 2.5mm square. Hope this helps.Rich

Hi Rich, yeah, that got covered. I'm presuming that we'd be ok to have the speaker cable and the multicore in the same trunking though? Maybe one idea would be to run speaker cable 20m to the amp (on/behind/near the stage) and then to the speakers from there. Would this work ok?

[Sirch Sound]

HAve a quick re read of my post, I edited it as you replyed. Yes, speaker cable and multicores side by side are normaly ok, however you should never run any signal cable beside a power cable if its avoidable, it gives you all sorts of interferance. I dont quite understand what your asking in your last question. Basically, if you are going to use an amp, then you should put the amps somewere near the speakers, to try and keep the cable runs as short as possible. You would link your amp to your speakers with the 2.5mm cable. Then you could send the output from your desk, down the multicore and into the back of your amplifier. This would be the"ideal" set up.

 

Rich

[simonbirdsey]

HAve a quick re read of my post, I edited it as you replyed. Yes, speaker cable and multicores side by side are normaly ok, however you should never run any signal cable beside a power cable if its avoidable, it gives you all sorts of interferance. I dont quite understand what your asking in your last question. Basically, if you are going to use an amp, then you should put the amps somewere near the speakers, to try and keep the cable runs as short as possible. You would link your amp to your speakers with the 2.5mm cable. Then you could send the output from your desk, down the multicore and into the back of your amplifier. This would be the"ideal" set up.

 

Rich

 

That makes sense Rich. Would you also use 2.5mm cable from the mixer to the amp? Would Speakons work with the existing jack sockets and do you have any opinion on the amps mentioned?

 

Sorry, to be so basic, but this is something that I've never done before.

 

Cheers,

 

Si

[bruce]

Then what bruce is saying is to change the conections on your speakers to be speakon, as these are alot safer than jack connectors. Imagine if you plug your cables into your amp and not into your speakers, and your amp is already powerd up, or you turn the power on, you then have 240v at the end of a metal connector, so anyone who picks up the connector instantly gets a load of power through there hand, more than enough to be fatal.

 

Saying you'll get 240V isn't quite accurate, but yes, the output froma power amp could do some harm.

 

are you saying that I could buy lengths of the CPC 2.5mm cable to go from the desk to the amp and from the amp to the speakers with Speakon connections and they would work ok with my speakers as they are?

 

Nope - I'm saying don't bother with the external amp, if the one that you've got built into the mixer is adequate. Just use the heavier cable between the mixer-amp (at the back of the hall) and the speakers (at the front!)

 

Adding the speakon connectors isn't strictly necessary, but would be a useful addition. Do your Yamaha speakers already have speakon inputs? or binding posts? Both are preferable to jacks.

 

What sort of amp do you have? Does it have speakon or binding post outputs?

[Sirch Sound]

No, theres no pint in using the thicker guage cable to go from the mixer to the amp, as theres no power in it, just signal. So you can use standard microhpone cables for this. And you would have to do a bit of tinkering to use speakon connectors. You would have to remove the jack sockets on your speakers and replace them with speakon sockets. Im guessing you dont know what a speakon connector looks like, there completly different to a jack socket, but much safer.

http://www.bluearan.co.uk/sales/connectors/images/NL4FX_small.jpg

 

On the amplifier, if you buy a seperate amp then the two you mentiond in your first post both have speakon outputs. If you are going to be using the amp in your mixer for a bit first, then there are various adaptors you can get to convert the outputs of your desk into speakon.

 

As for the amplifiers, I have used both and both are good amps for the price. However I would tend to find myself buying the yamaha, its not that im a behringer hater, just that I perfer the yammy amps. And make sure you get the right size amp for you speakers, I shal do a quick google to see what power rating your speakers are and get back to you.

 

And everyone has to start somewere!

Rich

[simonbirdsey]

What sort of amp do you have? Does it have speakon or binding post outputs?

 

Hi Bruce,

 

I'll double check with the mixer-amp tomorrow and get back to you. I'm glad you told me how potentially dangerous it can be. In which case, it seems like changing to the speakon connections would be a very good idea if it makes the equipment safer and perform better.

 

Neither the mixer or the speakers curently have either speakon connections or binding posts (just googled to see what they look like!). The speakers have just jack connections and the mixer has jack and phono. How would I go about changing over to speakons? Is it an adapter? Is it something I could do myself or would I have to take them in somewhere?

 

You're saying to not bother with an external amp, but to go for the 4mm cable instead?

[Sirch Sound]

Hmm aparently your speakers have jack and speakon inputs, which means you wont have to do any conversions. And yes im with bruce, theres no point buying another amp if the one you already have is going to do the job, a 20m cable run is not really that great in the grand scheme of things. You will be fine withough another amp.

 

Rich

[Andrew C]

HOLD ON!!

 

I think we need to clear something up here. Does your mixer have an amplifier built in? If yes, then run as heavy a cable as you can direct to the stage. You may want to consider changing the connectors, but we'll cross that bridge at a later time.

 

If there isn't an amp in the mixer, or it is underpowered, the best way forward is to send low level, balanced audio signal to an amp at the stage end NOT 1/2 way down the hall. Then short runs to the speakers from amp.

[simonbirdsey]

Hmm aparently your speakers have jack and speakon inputs, which means you wont have to do any conversions. And yes im with bruce, theres no point buying another amp if the one you already have is going to do the job, a 20m cable run is not really that great in the grand scheme of things. You will be fine withough another amp.Rich

Could you show me your link for the speakers please Rich? I've googled myself, but nothing much seems to come up for that particular model, not even on the Yamaha Pro Audio site. I was presuming that they're an old and possibly not sold anymore.I know that there are two inputs in the back of the speaker, but I'm pretty sure that they're both jack inputs.

HOLD ON!!I think we need to clear something up here. Does your mixer have an amplifier built in? If yes, then run as heavy a cable as you can direct to the stage. You may want to consider changing the connectors, but we'll cross that bridge at a later time.If there isn't an amp in the mixer, or it is underpowered, the best way forward is to send low level, balanced audio signal to an amp at the stage end NOT 1/2 way down the hall. Then short runs to the speakers from amp.

Hi Andrew,Yes, it's a powered mixer, but I don't have the model or even make infront of me at the moment. I'm gathering at the moment that the best thing to do is to change the connectors to speakon (if they're not already) and to use heavy cable directly to the speakers. If I do go for an amp then the Yamaha seems to have preference and I'll place it quite close to the speakers.

[Sirch Sound]

Its because your speakers are s115v, there is no such speaker as a s1151v. How old are your speakers? IF there still the curent model then the connector pannel should look like this.

 

The big black ones are speakon.

HOLD ON!!I think we need to clear something up here. Does your mixer have an amplifier built in? If yes, then run as heavy a cable as you can direct to the stage. You may want to consider changing the connectors, but we'll cross that bridge at a later time.If there isn't an amp in the mixer, or it is underpowered, the best way forward is to send low level, balanced audio signal to an amp at the stage end NOT 1/2 way down the hall. Then short runs to the speakers from amp.

Hi Andrew,Yes, it's a powered mixer, but I don't have the model or even make infront of me at the moment. I'm gathering at the moment that the best thing to do is to change the connectors to speakon (if they're not already) and to use heavy cable directly to the speakers. If I do go for an amp then the Yamaha seems to have preference and I'll place it quite close to the speakers.

I think you have it!

 

Rich