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Lumen Comparisons


WolvesAndi

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Hello All,

Here in Wolverhampton we're being sued yet again for someone drunk falling over at our clubnight. Obviously its our fault for serving beer and try to give them a good night. There arguement is that the room was to dark, we're a council and the last thing the room is to dark. the lighting rig consists of 6 pixel lines, 14 mac 500, 4 mac 600's, 6- 1500ansi lumen video projectors.

 

Our people in the office have asked me to write something about the amount of light in the room, I know I can find the light output of a mac 600 as 20,500 lumens, and could probably find out the light output of the pixel's and everything else, what I could do with is something to compare it with.

 

Just so I could say the lightoutput in the room is the same as 400 100watt household lights, I know it will all be different light temps and appear brighter and so forth.

 

Does anyone know of a big list of light outputs I could borrow or some online resource ?

 

Cheers and thanks in advance

 

Andi Lycett

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...

Just so I could say the lightoutput in the room is the same as 400 100watt household lights, I know it will all be different light temps and appear brighter and so forth.

Does anyone know of a big list of light outputs I could borrow or some online resource ?

...

A quick Google brought up a link to Hydroponics, which may not seem to be a direct link to lumens v. Watts, but it does suggest

So, a typical 100w household bulb can provide about 1,500 lumens, converting each watt into about 15 lumens. Whereas a standard fluorescent household bulb converts each watt into about 50 lumens....At the other end of the scale, HID lamps are a lot more efficient, converting each watt into about 150 lumens.

Hardly ISO or BS, but a good place to start?

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Our H&S officer walks around with a light meter when assessing rooms. I think this is going to be the only meaningful thing you can do.

 

Adding up the fixtures you have will not take into account where they are pointing, and how reflective the surfices they hit are. Were they all on full open white all the time (including the projectors) or will some of the output been filtered or blocked out?

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Adding up the fixtures you have will not take into account where they are pointing, and how reflective the surfices they hit are. Were they all on full open white all the time (including the projectors) or will some of the output been filtered or blocked out?

 

Of course this isn't at all accurate, but it will probably mean something to those reading, where lumens or other measurements almost certainly wouldn't!

 

To get average readings (for average positions?!) will be a pain. Lumen figures for fixtures are usually quite easy to get from manufacturer but, in all honesty, I would just add up the wattage and quote. Maybe make a reasonable guess & equivalent with LED's. This will be immediately understandable to anyone and, though perhaps technically inaccurate, not incorrect.

 

I do completely appreciate the issue but unless they walked into or tripped over something I can't see it being relevant anyway. All cases I have experienced involve slippy floor (after spilling beer on it, obviously!) and I've never been asked about light levels.

 

As an aside, actions to reduce risk have involved replacement of wooden dancefloor and older vinyl areas with latest anti-slip vinyl, 'no drinks on dancefloor' signs, removal/limiting of any trip-hazards & highlighting those remaining with fluoro tape.

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Geeze. Sorry to hear that you are being sued.

You should check out some underground clubs (like the one I work in). We have a reggae clubnight that insists they have no lights at all and the only light is from the bar and 2 emergency fire exit lights. This is my night off as you can tell...

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6 pixel lines, 14 mac 500, 4 mac 600's, 6- 1500ansi lumen video projectors

 

From the lights that you listed, assuming that they are the only lights in the venue and they are all over the dance floor then I would say that your club was too dark, however I am not a licensing officer. Although if like most other clubs I am sure you have other low voltage dimmed lighting throughout the rest of the venue to maintain a minimum illumination level.

 

When I used to manage a club in London, the licensing officer used to insist on a certain light level throughout the club in lux. (I can't actually remember the value). This level wasn't one set by legislation but by the particular officer himself, and no amount of arguing with him would change it, despite the club 100 yards up the road being dealt with by a different person and being a whole lot darker.

 

I am not exactly up on types of light meters, but I was told by my boss at the time that we couldn't afford to buy one, so I bought a £50 one from maplins, which was proved to be about as accurate as me plucking numbers out of the air when the licensing officer made a visit one time. The unit that I had at the time was ok at measuring levels under normal lighting conditions however in low light it had nowhere near the resolution required and just gave wrong readings.

 

I guess what I am saying is you can look at the light output of all the lighting on your dance floor, but that won't prove anything, you need to measure/consider the overall light level throughout the whole of the venue and if you/licence holder are happy that the venue is safe to operate then there really shouldn't be a problem. Bearing in mind that in the eyes of the law you are professional night club operators and your punter is just a drunk punter, unless he happened to be an off duty licencing officer then thats another story...

 

P.

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With no dissrespect to the OP whom I am assuming is the venue technician.

 

If you are a Council/Local Authority venue and you are being sued, which would indicate a court case, why haven't your legal department appointed an expert witness in this field.

 

An expert witness would know exactly what type and level information was required and would be able to compile and present it in a correct manner to the court.

 

I'm sure any prosecution lawyer will know and quote the min. lux levels for walkways, exit routes, staircases, dance floors etc and again, no dissrespect but I wouldn't think the venue tech. stating that the venue was as bright as four hundred domestic lamps would constitute a viable defense.

 

Or is this just an insurance claim and the coucil are wanting some plausable technical information on the insurance forms to mitigate their liabilities.

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Premises I've worked in have had a minimum lux level on the dance floor as part of there license before however I've never yet seen anyone go round with a meter and check. What was never explained to me was how long this was supposed to be averaged over, nor was I under the impression the club owner new what he was talking about frankly, just that it had to be bright. If however you've ever been checked then passing this (even if it was some time just after you opened) would surely be enougn to say you'd appeared to all relevant standards?

 

It does have to be said that between shutter chases,optics, and colour filters adding up the number of watts is fairly meaningless but on the other hand if the defence doesn't have an expert witness I'm not certain Joe Ambulance chaser would really notice any significance to this.

 

Oh and I'm 100% confident the council will have a department just for dealing with such things - Insurance is a department in it's own right, they will be looking at expert witness and the like (assuming they deem it worth it I guess - I don't know how such things are decided).

 

Another point we should consider: Should we really bee discussing this on an open forum that the ambulance chasers are equally able to read? Just a suggestion. What accident lawyers lack in morals they don't necessarily also lack in intelligence.

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I would have thought (although IANAL) that given the dynamic nature of all the fixtures you've listed, the existence of the ability to blackout things from the controller etc, that unless there was CCTV evidence of the state of the lighting at the exact moment and location of the fall, the prosecutor wouldn't be able to prove that it was too dark and you wouldn't be able to prove that it was light enough...

I suppose it depends on whether the area in which the fall occurred had any static permanent lighting - that would be the only type that you could get actual brightness figures for. Everywhere else would depend on what the LJ was feeling like at the time.

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