Large church setup

[cedd]

Sound tech posting, be gentle!

 

I have worked in a small church for a while, occasionally running vision, though mainly concentrating on sound. We use a yamaha vision mixer to mix laptop (song words and power point), DVD, Video and a spare port for a visiting laptop.

I have been asked by a friend (also technically minded, but without the internet) to research an installation at his church. It is a large affair with a seperate vision room (with windows openable into the main space). Projector is already installed though at present they're trying to use power point for song words, which is no use at all when the band repeat choruses unexpectedly. I have the software issue sorted however they're looking at (with quite a large budget) fitting out a suite suitable for 4 permenantly wired cameras around the space, extra sockets for additional cameras at special events (and conference hire of the room), at least one PC feed (I'd look at two for redundancy with the size of the place), DVD, Video and a bit spare for expansion. Mainly used for mixing the live video screens the kit also has to be capable of mixing down videos of baptisms, weddings etc.

 

Any ideas for a suitable vision mixer? It needs to mix audio as well if possible (mainly for the video and dvd outputs so that there's less fuss between the vision and sound desk, just one output that remains permenantly live).

 

I don't even know which brands to google! if they were re-doing their sound system I'd be in there straight away!

 

Cheers

 

C

[paulears]

There are some great Edirol mixer switchers now, with both SD and HD capability and plenty of ins and outs. They don't have onboard audio - much better to handle this in a separate piece of kit, but things like the Sony Anycast do have onboard digital mixing. To be honest, audio onboard is pretty useless because they need menu fiddling to access the parameters - so you can't really mess with the sound while using the video section, because of the pop up boxes that appear over your vision monitors. They are great if protability is vital, but you are much, much better with discrete products.

 

The entire video field is difficult, because generally studio operation needs very different operation styles and most one piece camcorders dont provide the facilities you want - comms, power, possibly autocue feeds, big monitors, remote control of iris and colour balance. If you need specifics, send me a pm and I will try to help. Probably too specific for the forum, as your own needs should be considered in detail, or you will waste VERY large sums of money on a great system that just won't work!

 

(A good example is operation of the iris. Exposure in churches - with large windows that are sometimes covered over, other times open to let in sunlight - is a nightmare. Auto iris doesn't cut it when you need to match the cameras - you really need to be able to do it from a seat where the output from all your cameras are visible, NOT from the camera. Video makes sound and lighting look simple - but people nearly always mess it up in some way.

[Pete McCrea]

It sounds like the current system relies on taking the Computer Data source down to Composite video, then mixing with the camera and DVD feeds, from where it then goes to the projector. This is a perfectly valid way to do things, but you do loose the detail from the higher resolution Data during the scaling process.

 

The other option is to take the video sources upto Data resolution. This doesn't improve the video quality, as you cant make more pixels from those you start with, but it does keep the resolution of the Data (songwords and PowerPoint).

 

A good scaling solution from the likes of Extron, Kramer, Barco or TV One would offer you all the ability of a video mixer with multiple output rates to suit the display device your driving. They do cost more than a typical video mixer, starting at around £1000 for the Extron DVS304 or TV One C2-1350 at around £1500 would be more than adequate.

 

Deciding which way to go will influence the rest of the system in terms of the signal types you'll be handling and the required processing. The decision on which way to scale will be led by the quality of the resultant output, the budget and other factors.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Pete

[soundiesam]

vision mixer wise I would suggest an MX 50! really easy to use!!!

sam

[Pete McCrea]

Sorry - possibly over complicated things on hind sight.....

 

The Panasonic MX50 is a good Mixer, and has both ballanced and unballanced audio inputs. One big problem, is it isn't made any more. So Ebay is your friend on that front, and expect to pay around £1000.

 

They do produce the MX70, but by all acounts the Key isn't as Songword Friendly as the older MX50. It is however a bit more functional with additional input options.

 

Getting song words into the MX50 or 70 will still require some form of scan conversion, either done by the PC's video card, or an external scan convertor.

 

Pete

 

Edit for clumsiness.

[soundiesam]

unless you use the downstream function on the desk

[cedd]

Thanks for the quick response.

 

I do like the panansonic desks, the current one in my setup has given amazing service.

 

As for scaling and conversion, we used to use an Aver Key unit, however with the advent of laptops with S-VHS outputs, we now use that (remember my setup is different to the one I've been asked to look at, much smaller and less involved. Does the job fine for us but won't argue that better may be needed for this system.

 

Hadn't thought about Iris control, it is slightly complicated by the venue having a large lighting rig (I remember when church used to involve pews and hymn books!) which will no doubt cause problems too. All cameras are unmanned so this will need to be taken into account if they decide to take the project that far. I suppose, ignoring the lighting rig for a second, we coulddo a "set and forget" job on install (the room has few windows) to get the optimum setting. Not the best job in the world but it's a start.

 

If it helps in the choice of mixer and the available range, I suppose I could fit a small line mixer for the audio seperate to the vision desk. Still controlled in the vision box so we don't give the sound techs more to think about.

 

I'll keep pondering

[paulears]

I'm very confused now. You have enough techs to have a control room, but have to put up with locked off cameras on auto everything. Quality images not that high on the list, then? Joking (I was) aside - locked of cameras in bigger buildings are pretty grim - however maybe this is a good reason to go with the Anycast - it can control Sony remote pan/tilt/zoom cameras - so you can dot them about - even on a mic stand, not video tripod or ped, and control them, from the mixer. If budget is there, this could save you lots of bother, and there is only a simple cable system to hook up. Not sure if you'd ever need it, but the thing can stream video to a net server if you need it to, which can be handy.

[dunk_1984]

From what I've read I don't think you have said whether you have the cameras etc.

 

We did something similar, which could be operated by 2 operators (If this is an issue).

The cameras were Sony movers similar to these

They were then controlled by a Sony RM-BR300

The cameras were then fed through a small vision mixer, something like the edirol v-4 would be perfect (4ch digital mixer)

Then on the other side were the PC's, DVD, video, etc which ran Words, powerpoint, videos etc.

These were then all fed into the Extron Scaler/switcher, this then fed out to the distribution amplifier, and run out over VGA cable to the projectors and on-stage screens.

The AV sound was controlled by a small Behringer mixer, then sent to the Sound Mixers.

 

Although I haven't included; quads, screens, scan converters etc, they would also be needed.

[cedd]

locked of cameras in bigger buildings are pretty grim - however maybe this is a good reason to go with the Anycast - it can control Sony remote pan/tilt/zoom cameras - so you can dot them about - even on a mic stand, not video tripod or ped, and control them, from the mixer. If budget is there, this could save you lots of bother, and there is only a simple cable system to hook up. Not sure if you'd ever need it, but the thing can stream video to a net server if you need it to, which can be handy.

 

That's exactly what they're after eventually! Live streaming to the web. Don't ask me where the money comes from, but they also have a comms room with servers and a full Cat5 setup (not in the hall unfortunately, otherwise I'd be looking to that as part of an option to this rig.)

 

Remote cameras would be ideal, none bought as yet, treat it as a blank slate less the screen which is there. The control room will be a one (or two) man affair really, when I say big, it's big on numbers and very sparse on technicians.

 

What wiring is used for the sony cameras? We won't be needing all movers, things like the crowd cameras looking over the crowd from the back can be fixed. Lectern could potentially but we'd have to tie the minister to it! One permenantly fitted over the Baptism pool looking down is on the cards too.

 

Lots to think about, I'll do a bit of googling!

[Stuart91]

My experience of remote controlled cameras is that they are fine for moving from one shot to another whilst off screen (moving from a lectern to a pulpit, for example, whilst the shot from another camera is being used). However they're way too jerky and imprecise to follow someone around, especially if you have a lively minister - if you want close-ups of him/her you'll need a manned camera.

[Greg]

Can I suggest that you talk to other churches to see what they have done, a good starting place would be http://www.elimbristol.org/ they have a very good set up and are very friendly. Hope this helps.

Regards

Greg

[cedd]

Can I suggest that you talk to other churches to see what they have done, a good starting place would be http://www.elimbristol.org/ they have a very good set up and are very friendly. Hope this helps.

Regards

Greg

 

Yes I'm in the middle of doing that at the minute. The church I've been talking to use CCTV remote cameras, not quite the animals I was after but we'll see.

As far as technical churches in the area, mine is pretty much the furthest ahead. Thing is, we have the technology but don't need the cameras as our building is smaller.

ALC in bradford has the ultimate setup, but they have almost a full production suite, with proper camera op's!

[lukemh]

also try www.whitewell.com

[Peter Chivers]

Can I suggest that you talk to other churches to see what they have done

My church is the Salvation Army in central Blackpool. We have a comprehensive video system installed with a view to the conferencing work which comes in. We have five camera lines about the hall, with two of these having hi resolution CCTV cameras on remote pan/tilt/zoom heads. The other three points are used as required for operated cameras. The video feeds are split between a switcher and an Edirol V4 video mixer. There are two dedicated computer feeds, one in the control area, and a set of sockets on the platform for an SVGA feed to a genlock for visiting (usually) laptops. The computer in the control area runs Easyworship and powerpoint - giving us the best of both worlds :) , Easy worship was selected after 18 months spent experimenting with virtually every other package for song word that is on the market ;) . If you want any further information please feel free to pm me.

 

Peter