New System and big upgrade coming

[W8TAH]

Hi folks:

 

We are getting ready to do a major upgrade to our church lighting rig and I'm looking for input.

 

For the past 10 years or so we have been running on a Strand GSX board using 2 Strand CD80 dimmers to control 17 fixtures on the lighting bar (mix of Shakespears, Strand SLs and Par 64s) as well as to run the house lights (total of about 35 channels)

 

We are getting ready to do a major upgrade and we recently bought a hogIIIpc (which is wonderful) as the first step. From there, right now we are looking at a large cyc or scrim behind our stage, 10 colorblasts to wash it from the floor upwards, 8 - 10 Chauvet intimidators at the top of the cyc or scrim to provide backlighting and effects, additional lecos in 3 different positions (2 high boxes and a balcony front) and 4 Studio Spot 575s.

 

Im interested in comments, suggestions, potential pitfalls etc

 

In short any information you can provide me would be a great help -- we need to do this right the first time --

 

Thanks

 

Tim Holmes

First Baptist Church - Medina, Ohio

[lightjocky]

hi there,

 

what sort of productions do you put on in the church ?

 

what sort of a heigh are you working at ? where are the positions of the lighting bars? what sort of power do you have?

 

you havent rearly mensioned any generic lights ( parcans, profiles, floods, fresnels)

would these be nessesary? not to sure without knowing what sort of performances are put on

 

thanks

lightjocky

[Tomo]

I'm kind of at a loss as to why you would purchase a Hog III (PC-based or otherwise), which is a very powerful professional moving light console, and then choose DJ kit for it to control!

 

The Intimidators are aimed at small nightclubs. They fulfill that role reasonably well, but they are almost certainly not the sort of effect that you really want.

If nothing else, they are 250W halogen, and hence much less than 1/4 the brightness of your existing parcans - probably closer to an 1/8th.

Against the Studio Spots and existing parcans, they will vanish!

 

To cut through a wash of 1kW Par64s, you really need something closer to 1kW discharge (HID), although some 575W HIDs have good enough optics and sufficiently efficient sources to do so.

 

Look at fixtures from High End, Martin Professional, Robe and similar.

If you have the budget for Hog III, then you should be able to purchase some very flexible scans and/or moving heads.

 

The latest Cyberlight units would probably be suitable and you've bought a console from them, and are considering their Studio Spots, so may be able to get a good deal - although this may be limited by the fact that the previous purchase has been completed.

 

Are you sure that you want scanners? (moving-mirror)

 

The only advantage of modern scans versus modern moving heads is the speed - a good scan will always move faster than a good moving head, simply due to the mass involved.

However, scans always suffer from some amount of spill, and have a much smaller range of motion than moving heads.

They will also be dimmer for the same lamp and optics, due to losses at the mirror.

 

I have heard good things about the latest Martin and Robe 575W offerings, although I haven't used them myself - others here can give better personal opinions.

 

Finally, and probably most importantly, do not ignore your dimming - it is much, much better to have a lot of dimming and few moving lights than the other way around.

 

When a leko breaks, you can probably fix it fairly easily and cheaply.

When a dimmer channel fails, you can almost always patch around it, and again it can be repaired fairly easily.

When your moving light fails, it costs a fortune to fix and requires specialist knowledge.

 

HID lamps for moving lights are pretty expensive as well, and generally only last for around 800 to 1000 hours of use - that's time spent turned on (burning), not time spent actually lighting the show/service.

If your services are 2 hours long, then you'll probably burn the lamps for 4 hours each service - which is only 200 services before they must be replaced.

 

That sounds like a long time, but at over $60 each it adds up fast.

 

And don't be tempted to burn HID lamps much longer than it says on the box - once you go over hours, the probability of the lamp rupturing starts going up fast.

And an MSD1200 goes with a very loud BANG!

[lightjocky]

I totally agree - a Hog 3 is a bit dramatic for a Church!

 

I would hire this for a show with 40 moving heads not some generics and some scanners.

 

A Frog or otherwise for a fraction of the cost would have been cheaper and simpler but it's done now.

 

I have just been on the spec list for the scanners and they are very pro DJ.

 

If the money's there I strongly recommend a Mac 250. (Or robe etc. I don't wont to offend anyone!)

 

And the dimming: Do you have dimming set up?

 

How much power is available?

 

If you planning to have 10 scanners + 4 moving heads plenty of DMX is important. (I left this in, but I have no idea what it means.)

 

(From previous experience- if you are using so many Intel's make sure there is money in the budget kept for lamps and service. Without anyone starting to cry, I went to a theatre in Manchester the other week and went into their crew room there was a Strand 500 series desk and 3 Mac 2000s broken, with no money to fix them. Probably about 50 grands worth of kit.) Don't worry, they're being fixed this month, so Ive been told, but make sure there is money available!

 

Moderation: QUALITY CONTROL: I have, for one time only, fixed the spelling, grammar and punctuation as best I can. Next time, I'm just going to delete it. Your original post follows:

 

totally agree a hog 3 is ab-it dramatic for a Church !

 

I would hire this for a show with 40 moving heads not some generics and some scanners!

 

a frog or otherwise for a fraction of the cost would have been cheaper and simpler but its done now!

 

just been on the spec list for the scanners and they are very pro DJ

 

if the moneys there I strongly recommend a mac 250 ( or robe etc. dnt wont to offend anyone!)

 

and the dimming do you have dimming set up?

 

how much power is available!

 

if you planning to have 10 scanners + 4 moving heads plenty of DMX is important !!!

 

(from previous experience- if you are using so many Intel's make sure there is money in the budget kept for lamps and service without anyone starting to cry I went to a theatre in Manchester the other week and went into there crew room there was a strand 500 series desk and 3 mac 2000 broken ! with no money to fix them probably about 50grands worth of kit) don't worry there being fixed this moth so Ive been told but make sure there is money available!!!

 

Bryson

[Matt Riley]

I totally agree - a Hog 3 is a bit dramatic for a Church!

 

That depends - perhaps the OP got a good price, or perhaps they're looking for future expansion, or, perhaps, like lots of American churches, they put on a huge Christmas and easter production, with 40 moving heads etc, and don't want to have to hire in and learn a new console. Anyway, according to the OP, it's been bought now!

 

In terms of the other kit, I'd probably put a bit more on the dimming/generics side, and of course sort out some replacements for the intimidators - probably something like mac 550s or robe colourspot 575s. Within reason I'll always go with less fixtures by a quality manufacturer, rather than more kit by a cheap manufacturer.

 

The only other gear recommendation might be to have colourblasts at the top and bottom of the cyc, to give some more options for lighting it and the opportunity to have a very even colour wash, which you might lose if just lighting it from the bottom.

 

With regards to maintenance, unless you've got technical guys already employed by the church full time who are willing to get trained and do the maintenance on the rig, can I suggest that you sort out some sort of repair contract with a local rental house or supplier to come in and service the heads every year/6 months/3 months, depending on the use the fixtures are getting.

 

Oh, and find a trusted supplier, and enter into dialogue with them about what you need. There are quite a few options in this area, and if you're willing to be a bit flexible with the exact fixture model choices, then you could end up with a far better deal than if you just present them with a shopping list that some teenager off the internet (me in this case) wrote up! Especially as they could probably demo them in your space beforehand, and would have seen the inside of your building, which I haven't.

 

HTH,

 

Matt

[Simon Lewis]

In short any information you can provide me would be a great help -- we need to do this right the first time --

 

The experience at my church has been:

1) a wide variation in technical ability means that not many use the moving lights, and even those that do, do not always get the best out of them. Part of that is due to the relatively low cost controller in use at present, part of it is possibly due to not knowing how to light subjects properly!

 

2) PAR cans and Source 4s get their bulbs changed. It's a simple running cost. Moving lights have more expensive lamps, but have various electronic and mechanical systems that drift out of alignment or just break. Getting the fixture down and having it fixed becomes a greater logistical and financial issue.

 

3) If you do not already have it, make sure there is a simple way of controlling house lights and a basic stage wash. It allows a service to take place without a specialist LX person in attendance (funerals etc.).

 

Simon

 

Moderation: Bible lighting advice split off to a new topic here

[Cougar]

Ill second Simon's point, while the controller we have is far from ideal and its limitations constantly frustrate me, the lack of ideas about how to properly light someone cause far more issues while light is light and reacts in the same way regardless of the source less technical people seem to view movers differently and forget anything they do well with generic fixtures. I don't know the abilities and experience of your crew but making sure they understand that moving lights are a tool not a toy and that they can do things other than be stationary or move at full speed.

[W8TAH]

HI -- our productions range from your basic sunday mornin contemporary worship services to full dramas and musicals -- both adults and children, as well we occasionally host a concert from a traveling group, or a youth band

 

My primary lighting position is 22 feet from the floor and 28 feet 6 inches from the upstage wall (not idea I realize but its what I have to work with) the stage is 54 feet wide and 18 feet deep

 

Power is currently supplied by 2 24x1.2kw Strand CD80 dimmer packs in the ceiling

 

right now the rig consists of a combination of alman shakespears (30s) and par64s

 

TIM

 

 

The board is a first step, and was purchased used. As a result we were able to get it for around 7500 dollars (its the pc model not the full hog console). we got it because it is capeable and will be moving with us to our new worship center in a few years -- as far as the intimidators, they were suggested to me by a salesperson (who is rapidly revealing himself to be a total jerk) thats part of the reason for my post. to determine what I should and should not do -- im a great believer in community wisdom

 

we are currently tryin to decide on our moving heads, the studio spots have some knocks on them and im leaning more toward the macs (probably the 700s -- but again im looking for input on that )

 

Whatever fixtures I install, I will be going for long life bulbs that is for sure

 

My goal is to produce a high quality fixed light rig and then compliment it with my movers and intelligent fixtures for effects and specials

 

Any and all input is most welcome

 

 

Hi -- the Hog 3 is planned to be a long term board, and probably wont get used to the level you suggest but im hoping eventually to be in the range of 15 to 20 movers and we did get a very good price on it.

 

I currently have 2 24x1.2kw strand cd80 packs in the ceiling that control all my current lights, as well as all the house lights

 

we will have money for repairs.

 

 

We did get a very good price for the Hog 3PC (just about 7500USD) and it will be moved to our new worship center in a few years. Also, we do large christmas and easter shows as well as some other fair productions in the year. I am rapidly getting a negative feel on the intimidators, and will be looking at other options very quickly.

 

Your other suggestions are excellent indeed and I will be presenting them to those who make the decisions

 

TIM

 

 

In re: 1). I can understand this -- I am pretty much the extent of the lighting crew from designer to electrician to board operator. I have been lighting for about 10 years now, but cost and placement constraints have limited what I can do, that is part of the reason that I am asking for help from anyone who is willing to talk. I just had a good lesson in lighting today from the LD of our local high school and one of the huge churches in the area, and I am sure I will be learning more as time goes on.

 

In re: 2). The cost of routine maint. will be figured in as we create our proposal and specs.

 

In re: 3). We do and the church staff members will know in general terms how to get the basic lighting on stage. However, as I also teach in the school our church has, I am in the building 7 days a week, and make it my habit to show for all services.

 

TIM

 

 

The crew is one man -- Me -- in terms of experience I have 10 years with a rig full of par cans and a few elipsoidals, and using a Strand GSX. I am actively looking for any and all input to make me better and to allow me to properly light our services. I do indeed realize that the moving lights are not toys, and I am looking forward to having them so I can learn to utilize the correctly

 

TIM

 

Moderation: Please don't keep quoting the full text of all the other people's replies - it isn't necessary and make posts simpy huge and hard to navigate. I've removed the entire lot from this post. If you need to comment about bits of posts, please edit the quote to just the important bits

[ukinfidel]

I'm bloody jealous of your church's financial resources. My church can't find enough money to pay for basic cables for the youth group band. The very idea of a lighting rig is beyond all hope. You could say that we're a little traditional...

[W8TAH]

For many years we have been in the same boat, very traditional and not enough resources to buy or fix much of anything -- in the past 2 years we've grown from 230 people to almost 500 on an average sunday morning - with it we are trying to expand and update -- this will be a fund-raising project, not coming out of regular budget. But we have been blessed

[Simon Lewis]

Here's a few more suggestions...

 

- Do join (if you haven't already) the discussion group at churchsoundcheck.com - there will be many lighting people there in a similar situation to you, and you can draw upon the experience of other US churches.

 

- Do bear in mind that moving lights do not have "long life bulbs" as such....

 

- Do encourage others to join you and form a lighting team. You may well be there seven days a week, but it will never be good for your health, family relationships or sanity if you can't share the workload...

[W8TAH]

Simon -- thanks --

 

I just joined Church Sound Check -- looks like a great group

 

I understand the limitations of the bulbs, for terms of discussion, I will be getting the "longer life" bulbs rahter than the ones with the 300 hour lives

 

I am actively looking for others to join my team, unfortunatly so far they have not been very forth comming -- that is an area of concern. Fortunatly, I'm single and so far things are ok doing it the way I have. As far as sanity goes, -- I know I'm nuts! -- seriously - - I will continue to look and hope to find some bright young men to mentor -- My school crew is all 5th graders and has on occasion run the entire chapel service (Sound, lighting, and video projection as well as video recording, audio recording (to computer using Audacity) and still photgraphy) by themselves -- they are great kids!

 

Thanks very much for your input -- it is valuable and appreciated

[Tomo]

I understand the limitations of the bulbs, for terms of discussion, I will be getting the "longer life" bulbs rahter than the ones with the 300 hour lives

This applies only to the Tungsten Halogen lamps in your generic fixtures (Lekos, Par64s etc)

 

The longer life Tungsten Halogen lamps are dimmer and more 'yellow' than the standard life Tungsten Halogen.

If they're all the same, the eye automatically adapts to make it still look 'white', so it probably doesn't matter to you.

It's harder to predict how long these really last of course, as it varies hugely depending on how they are used!

 

HID lamps generally only come in one or two kinds for a given fixture, and they tend to have very similar lifetime.

The manuals for HID fixtures always state which lamps can be used - generally they give two different manufacturers (usually Philips Broadway and one other), sometimes two lamps from each.

 

Usually the main difference between the options is colour temperature, or 'whiteness' of the light.

This is given in degrees Kelvin, and contrary to popular belief, bigger numbers are not always better!

 

Bigger numbers = whiter light, smaller numbers = yellower light. Yellower will come closer to matching your lekos and parcans, Whiter will cut through the tungsten wash better.

 

So pick the lamp depending on what you want to use them for.

 

It's also usually a good idea to change all the HID lamps at the same time, as they become dimmer as they age, and it's very annoying when a random part of the rig is significantly brighter than the rest!

It is an expensive exercise, but it's easy to predict and therefore budget for.

[W8TAH]

Cool that makes a lot of sense -- I will be taking all that into consideration when I design the rig.

 

Thanks for your input

 

TIM

[jfitzpat]

Two considerations that often get overlooked in houses-of-worship situations are:

 

* Noise

* Operator Learning Curve

 

The fixtures mentioned are all fairly noisy, both moving and just sitting. That does not mean that they cannot be used, but fixtures with reduced power modes and controllable fans can be a big plus if the lighting is used for quite and reflective moments.

 

Operator Learning Curve is another overlooked factor. Many church settings here are very busy facilities, with largely volunteer work forces. Having a couple dozen different volunteers all operate a Hog III can be something of a disaster. What we've seen a lot is a simple soft front end (we have an API and a sample), or even alcove buttons, to bring up (and transition cleanly in random order) a bunch of 'standard' looks. Full capabilities are still present for more complicated services/presentations, but the controller is isolated from screwups by volunteers, and volunteers are saved some stress and grief.

 

There are also some publications dedicated exclussively to stagecraft issues in Churches, but I've only glanced at them.

 

Good Luck,

-jjf