Hiring PPE

[AndrewR]

I'm actual quite confused myself now. I own 2 Lyon steel strops exactly same model as the one in the second link but abacus the second link say they can hold 5000kg and there WWL. Lyon say they can hold 500kg and they are WLL. So don't understand that one. Can anyone make sense of this.

 

SNIP!

 

Email them and ask what the safety factor is on the quoted SWL/WLL. Sounds like one is actually the breaking strain and the other the SWL at 10:1 (i.e. personel safety factor)

[Sam_Lowers]

Hi All,

 

Sorry I haven't had a chance to reply for a while.

 

Right just to smooth a few things out. The aid climb would be done like this:

http://www.heightec.com/facilities/kendal/...-steelwork.html

 

It is very simple and one of the skills you MUST pass to receive your IRATA level 1 ticket, (which I have)

On your level 1 your learn how to rig strops and move along beams using just 3 and also how to move along using multiple strops.

 

I can understand your concern about doing it but I have looked into it. We will be having me as a level 1 preforming the task with a Level 3 on standby for emergency purpose.

 

I would love to be able to do it of a scaffold tower but there is no way that we can get hold of one unless anybody knows of any company's in Bristol who would be willing to lend one for free.

 

The first strops would be rigged from our small scaff tower from our balcony and then progress from there.

 

I can see your point about using a ladder to rig up some rope lines and then hauling the chain hoists into position but our problem is that where we are a college there is no way that we are allowed to use ladders because of H&S.

 

Sam

[IRW]

I can see your point about using a ladder to rig up some rope lines and then hauling the chain hoists into position but our problem is that where we are a college there is no way that we are allowed to use ladders because of H&S.

 

Um, you're in a theatre environment and you are not allowed to use ladders? Do the people who have told you this know about the rope-access shinnanigans you are planning? How do you usually rig lanterns?

 

I notice your profile says you're at Filton college- I've just been on your college's website and I'm guessing this is the theatre you're talking about?

Does the college not have some sort of caretaking/building maintenance staff whom you can ask to put the rigging points in for you??

 

Failing that, why not ask the local window cleaner?! :unsure:

 

Ian

[frazer]

Does the college not have some sort of caretaking/building maintenance staff whom you can ask to put the rigging points in for you??

 

Or even the whole lot and save you the hassle, and the unnecessary danger?

 

Honestly Sam, I totally understand why you are wanting to do this yourself, but I really think a job like that, in an educational environment should be left to the paid professionals.

 

Frazer

[paulears]

I've had a nice PM from Sam - whose explained many of the things going on.

 

The thing that concerns me is the college almost certainly won't have any of the sites or teaching team qualified, or even experienced in this area of work, so Sam, despite the tickets he's picked up will be the only 'responsible' or 'competent' person - and, as a student, what member of staff would put their career (or even liberty) on line if he has an accident? Would the college insurance pay up if the person legally in charge wasn't able to tell if what was being done was safe?

 

I don't pretend to be a rigging expert, but when we did this kind of thing for college shows, I took the responsibility for the rigging of hired in motors. Not being (or wanting to be) a rigger, everything was over-rated just for more peace of mind for me. I was happy with how I did it - but a rigger may well have laughed, wondering why I'd over-specified everything - and had a truss in not quite the right position. The truth was a dead hang from the available steelwork was simple, but putting the truss in the space between two steel spans (where it should have been) was something I wasn't comfortable with.

 

In Sam's case, he is experienced in climbing. Assuming nobody else is - how can they allow this? I don't know - but I'd not be happy if I was the person in charge and one of my students wanted to do this kind of thing. Despite the qualifications (and I have no idea what these things are, let alone understand the processes used) I think if it was me there - I would say no. This seems harsh - but I have a student trying to sue me as somebody who 6 years ago was 'in charge' of a college event at a local theatre. He says he had an accident (which I can't rmember details of) and as I don't work at the college any more - they passed the insurance company my details!

 

Sam no doubt, is able to get to the point he wishes to hang a motor, get it up there and do the job - but would you, standing on the ground looking up, feel able to put your name on a piece of paper saying the process was safe, the person competent and sign off a "safe to use" document?

 

If the college don't allow students to use ladders - they allow people to hang from the roof on rope? Doesn't sound to me if risk assessment is their strong point. Bear in mind that the ropes in the gym that many of us were forced to climb by vindictive PE teachers when we were kids are no longer in use because of safety issues.

[Andrew C]

Someone also needs to be reading WAHR, and specifically the hierarchy of equipment choice. Climbing is the last resort, hiring a zip-up is much higher up the list. The cost CANNOT be used as an "excuse" for exposing someone to the risk (however low they perceive it) of an aid climb. A ladder would fall (sorry) between the two in the hierarchy, and they ARE NOT illegal.

[Simon Lewis]

Similarly, if one of my students proposed rigging equipment using their own climbing skills, rather than following the WaH hierarchy, I would stop the project straight away.

 

It is a perverse law, but as a lecturer I have a legal responsibility for student welfare when they are engaged in course related activities. This includes Independent Study.

 

As Paul succinctly points out, "banning" ladders then letting FE students climb to access the RSJ and rig equipment goes against the spirit and letter of the WaH regulations.

 

Sorry, Sam, this isn't a dig at you, or your desire to make this show work. It simply has to be done differently.

 

 

Simon

[Seano]

It is very simple and one of the skills you MUST pass to receive your IRATA level 1 ticket

Its less simple outside a training environment. The real world is hot, filthy and badly lit. Carrying the gear and placing it as you go is also strenuous, particularly if the structure dictates where you can place each sling, rather than your own preference.

 

We will be having me as a level 1 preforming the task with a Level 3 on standby for emergency purpose.

Will your level 3 friend be on standby on site, with the appropriate kit ready to go and a rescue plan already in mind to cover the situation you're entering into? If so, thats good. (If not he may as well phone his rescue in from the beach for all the good it'll do you.)

 

I would love to be able to do it of a scaffold tower but there is no way that we can get hold of one unless anybody knows of any company's in Bristol who would be willing to lend one for free.

Cost can be a factor in moving along that access method hierarchy thats already been mentioned (I think). But I think you'd have a very tough time arguing that the cost of hiring a zip-up tower for a day is 'significant' for these purposes. (ie: I tend to agree with the point made above, that "We can't afford a scaff tower." just isn't good enough. There may be valid reasons why it wouldn't be feasible for you to use a tower, but this isn't one.)

Anyhow, you're not being honest. You wouldn't love to use a scaff tower, that's boring, you'd much rather climb. I totally understand that, so would I. Sadly that also isn't a valid reason to do it.

 

I can see your point about using a ladder to rig up some rope lines and then hauling the chain hoists into position but our problem is that where we are a college there is no way that we are allowed to use ladders because of H&S.

Because of H&S, or because someone's interpretation of H&S is just bloody stupid? The whole point of all this tedious risk assessment stuff you hear so much about these days is to encourage people to think about what they're proposing to do, in an open-minded, unbiased and realistic way. Allegedly. Unthinking knee-jerk dogma should have no place in the process. Again, there may be perfectly good reasons to reject the use of a ladder in favour of a roped-access approach. This isn't one of them: "We've decided ladders are dangerous, you have to do something else instead."

 

People who are genuinely interested in H&S at work are a joy. But just about everyone you'll ever meet in the workplace who uses those two words are actually more interested in office politics, petty powerplay or liability management. (ie: We'd rather you did something thats actually more dangerous for you, but provides us with a degree of deniability.) I'm in danger of getting into one of my favourite rants, better nip this paragraph in the bud.

 

 

Someone also needs to be reading WAHR, and specifically the hierarchy of equipment choice. Climbing is the last resort, hiring a zip-up is much higher up the list. The cost CANNOT be used as an "excuse" for exposing someone to the risk (however low they perceive it) of an aid climb. A ladder would fall (sorry) between the two in the hierarchy, and they ARE NOT illegal.

What he said. (Except the bit about cost - it can be a factor and often is. But, like I say, it would prolly have to be rather more cost that a medium sized zip-up tower for one day before it counts.)

 

However - I like climbing, its a valuable skill and one that takes practice to acquire and maintain. If someone who intends to develop these professional skills has an opportunity to practice them, under the right kind of supervision, with the rescue plan and kit in place, yadda, yadda. I don't see why it shouldn't be regarded as an educational excercise, even if the climb wouldn't be strictly justified in a purely professional sense.

 

Similarly, if one of my students proposed rigging equipment using their own climbing skills, rather than following the WaH hierarchy, I would stop the project straight away.

It is a perverse law, but as a lecturer I have a legal responsibility for student welfare when they are engaged in course related activities. This includes Independent Study.

It is perverse. When I was a lad, we used to think that education was about encouraging students to develop their skills (and thereby themselves).

 

Ok. With everything I've said before taken as read. (What you're proposing is bad and you mustn't do it, etc., so on... ) Here are a couple of suggestions:

 

If you're determined to do the traverse - I would suggest that for fall arrest you use a dynamic rope and a human belayer. (Your Irata level 3 buddy seems the obvious candidate, a Gri-Gri the obvious device.) You're proposing to leave these steel slings in place as you traverse, and if you're threading them through the holes in the beam they'll be captive, and unable to slide along the beam - this means they'll probably be good for use as running belays ('runners').

 

The advantage of this is that a skilled belayer can often limit a fall more than is possible with a shock absorbing lanyard - possibly important if my impression that the beam isn't very high is correct. Also, in the event that you fell, rescuing you would most likely be as simple as your belayer lowering you directly to the ground without leaving the ground himself. (If you fell and were suspended by a lanyard, that would require an awkward rescue (which would put your rescuer in danger, because of course there'd be noone around to rescue him). The belayer should use a direct belay, or failing that at least have an anchor available so that he could lock you off and escape the system if necessary. (I assume your familiar with those technical terms?)

 

Before committing to the traverse (even if you're totally committed to a roped access approach): Have you looked into the possibility of rigging a rope for ascent and a backup remotely and then ascending vertically to your work site? Can the bit of beam you're interested in be reached with a stick, or could a weight bag be thrown through the hole? If you're not familiar with it, you should look into the use of a 'Cambium Saver'. I'm not sure if its something Irata 1 goes into, its an arboricultural technique mostly. Again it might be better to use a human belayer as backup than the more conventional Shunt/Rocker. (An ASAP would not be suitable in this case - the reason is in the small print.)

 

Whatever you do, be sure you're carrying the gear you need to "self-rescue" (nothing fancy, maybe just a couple of dyneema slings, a prussik loop and an idea of what you can do with them). At the very least, if you get stuck, you need to be able to rig a footloop or adjust your position to safeguard against the possibility of suspension trauma.

 

Time for my nap. Good luck.

 

Oh, nearly forgot this bit...

 

I was happy with how I did it - but a rigger may well have laughed, wondering why I'd over-specified everything - and had a truss in not quite the right position. The truth was a dead hang from the available steelwork was simple, but putting the truss in the space between two steel spans (where it should have been) was something I wasn't comfortable with.

 

(My italics)

Nope. A good rigger would more likely applaud your pragmatism. (Possibly after a brief whinge that you've done him out of a day's work.) :unsure:

[Jivemaster]

If the establishment have proscribed the use of ladders, have they understood and approved your proposed climb?

 

If they have not specifically approved this climb, then. if they find you have done the climb without or contrary to their approval you could be in a bad state, even thrown out of the place and off your course on grounds of gross malpractise and contravention of H&S.

[Simon Lewis]

Sam,

 

Out of interest, how are you approaching this problem now?

 

Simon

[Sam_Lowers]

Out of interest, how are you approaching this problem now?

 

Hi Simon.

 

We have had long lengthly chats with college and they have decided that on this one occasion they will allow the use of ladders for access.

 

I don't mind doing it but am a little nervous because of the angle of the ladders so will have someone footing it - who is nice and heavy - and I may use my fall arrest lanyard because it only has a 1.5m break taking it to 3m.

 

I am in the theatre tomorrow so will fully assess it and make my final decisions but I think that using ladders are safe enough, the theatre technician is happy and so is our stage manager - who has to put together our risk assessment.

 

If anybody has anything to add to this then it would be great to see what you think about this method.

 

Cheers

Sam

[Jivemaster]

Ladders seem much safer than an ill planned climb!

 

Can you use a bamboo cane to poke a string through suitable beam holes to give you a route for a belay rope before you climb, assuming you have a belay person.

 

Take a pulling rope up and over a pulley then you can get the work of pulling the hook up done from the ground.