What news on the Light Palette?

[Albatross]

I have one of these on trial/demo to replace our aging & dying 300. Specifically a Light Palette VL , 24 'Submaster's, 100 Buttons, 2 sets of playbacks, 4 encoder wheels, 12 additional playbacks. What I thought would be a 500 series replacement.

 

Our Theatre has no movers, scrollers, colour changers. Purely 'conventional', and largely Strand, luminaires, but we wanted the capability to have more 'intelligent' in the not too distant future.

 

I'll be blunt. It's not a Strand machine. It has very little in common and it will require you to totally change the way you do your shows; if you can get it to do what you want.

 

I have used a range of Strand desks over the years, Galaxys, Geminis, Duets, M24's, so I know it's not me.

I even worked at Strand here in Oz in the late 80's.

 

I am a technician from way back, and always pride myself on being able to make things work without using a manual. If something passes the '5 minute test' (If I can do a simple task in 5 minutes or less) then it has a chance of being usable in the long term.

 

This desk didn't pass the 4 hour test !

I wanted to try & set it up so that I could use it on a show this week. Setup Groups, Submasters, Effects & Cues, so that I could have my basic building blocks. It was not to be. :)

 

Seriously, it has not been till 8 hours later that I was able to make it program cues to a Submaster !

The function to set 'Looks' to Submasters is very obscure.

 

After 3 days I am still unable to record an Effect into a cue, much less build & label my own effect.

 

Yes I have read the manual, and used the help file.. there is not even a simple example given, for anything.

 

The display is nice, but not very friendly. There is no "Clear/Cancel" key that works for all things. Sometimes its the backspace key, other times its the Release Key, other times I have resorted to using the qwerty keyboards esc key as the ONLY way to cancel a dialogue box I didn't want.

 

The desk itself is very light weight & the buttons don't have that long life feel; they are very plastic & $20 PC keyboard feeling. ( The qwerty keyboard itself seems like a really nice industrial keyboard in comparison)

 

At this stage I will be strongly reccomending that we look at something, anything, else, which really saddens me.

 

I'll rant on more about this soon, as we have a fellow from the UK out to us in 2 days to give us a 'workshop'; and maybe I'll be more positive after that. (fingers crossed)

[Bobby Harrell]

I understand from a Strand guy that Palette can now read SSF files - software update to be released very soon. The European HQ to be set up by July 07

 

It can read ssf showfile. For cue, groups, subs and intensities. Not yet for patch or attributes.

[gareth]

So it can only read partial SSF show files, then, and not import them fully. I also heard that it can't import effects - is that correct? Frankly, that's not particularly good for a desk which is supposed to be a direct replacement for the 500-series. I see that ETC are officially launching the Eos into the UK at ABTT next week - I think there'll be an awful lot of current Strand users taking a very close look at it ... I certainly will be ...

[Andi_Davis]

So it can only read partial SSF show files, then, and not import them fully. I also heard that it can't import effects - is that correct? Frankly, that's not particularly good for a desk which is supposed to be a direct replacement for the 500-series. I see that ETC are officially launching the Eos into the UK at ABTT next week - I think there'll be an awful lot of current Strand users taking a very close look at it ... I certainly will be ...

 

At the moment it imports only generics and the cue list. Which is unfortunate. However, my understanding is that it will very shortly import attributes as well - and in a far more sophisticated way than would be possible using standard ASCII exports. This will apparently allow control groups built on the '500' Series to be mapped directly onto the Palette's built-in control libraries, achieving a degree of integration between '500' Series and Palette showfiles which will not be possible on any other console (as far as I'm aware). Its taken much longer than everyone would have liked, but I'm reliably informed that its on its way.

 

As far as effects go, these are also not supported at the moment, but I'm assured they'll be importing very shortly. The Palette effects engine is radically different, so the implementation of the imported effects will also need to be different, but there's no reason to suppose that the end result won't be correct when it comes out on the stage!

 

As for the Eos, I'd absolutely recommend having a close look - its looks stunning (I think, anyway!) However, both of these products are at a formative stage of development - Eos because its a new build, and Palette because its an existing product that is being scaled up and reworked for a slightly different market. If anyone expects either of these desks to be fully functional '500' Series replacements straight away then prepare to be disappointed! It will take time for both desks to achieve this - however frustrating this might be, petulant foot-stamping is unlikely to make things go very much quicker! :)

[gareth]

No-one's stamping their feet. My point is merely that by making the introduction of a satisfactory Palette range such a painfully protracted process, Strand are shooting themselves in the foot. My suspicion is that quite a few customers who are looking to replace a 500-series desk will investigsate the Palette, discover that it's an incomplete product which is only partially compatible with their current desk and can't fully import their existing show files, and will go looking elsewhere in a situation in which they would previously have bought another Strand console without giving the opposition a second thought.

 

A case in point is the touring theatre circuit in Wales (quite a bit of the product for which originates from my venue). For a long while, every theatre on the circuit has been a Strand 500-series house, making it very easy for us to tour a show. However, to my knowledge two of the venues have recently bought ETC desks - I can only imagine that this is because they looked at the Strand alternative and found it wanting. Wales' leading touring dance company have recently bought an ETC desk, apparently because they looked at the Strand alternative and weren't impressed. A major London-based touring dance company, who are regular visitors to our venue, have apparently just replaced their Obsession II with an Eos - knowing them as I do, I can't imagine them choosing a new control system if it didn't show every sign of being a well-thought-out fully-rounded product that would serve their every need.

 

We have three 500-series desks where I work - one of them is quite old and will proably need replacing soon. If the new Palettes could swallow our archived show files in their entireity, and could interface with our other 500-series desks over the network, we'd buy one. But they won't, so there's every possibility that when the time comes for desk replacements we'll look elsewhere - especially given that other theatres in the Principality are showing signs of a migration towards ETC.

 

Though it pains me to have to say it, it's looking very much as though Strand's days of being king of the UK lighting control market are now over.

[strand600X]

Hi Gareth, and al

 

I want to assure everyone that the people at Strand/Genlyte are doing thier upmost best and giving 110% to getting the new 500 replacement i.e. the palette out as soon as they have got it to do all that they have said it will do. It will be absolutly outstanding and just like the 500 will pave the way for future lighting desks.

 

I spoke to a friend at Strand today who was in the new premises near Gatwick. So at least they are back in the UK and I hope with a vengance.

Lets all try and be a little patient and let the boys do their job and get it right.

I know it's been a long time but I think well worth the wait.

 

Baz

Opera North

:D

[JMC]

Indeed the boys are back! Link to the news story here!

[Andi_Davis]

Lets all try and be a little patient and let the boys do their job and get it right.

 

 

Absolutely! The British theatre industry is stuffed full of people (like ourselves) who know the 500 Series backwards, and would have loved to see Strand march into the future with a desk built directly on GeniusPro. We'd have liked it even more if that desk had arrived two years ago! But, it didn't.

 

As has been documented elsewhere on this forum, the 'new' Light Palette is based on an existing product. However, the suggestion that this means that the new Strand desk is simply someone else's desk with a Strand logo stuck on it is extremely unfair - an awful lot of people are working hard behind the scenes to make sure this isn't true.

 

What's completely fascinating is that we're shaping up for a fight between two desks (the Light Palette and the EOS) that perfectly exemplify the two principal schools of thought behind developing new consoles... the EOS has (I believe) been written completely from scratch, whereas the Light Palette is based on the core of an existing product. This is the dilemma that faces all companies when developing new consoles - to adapt something that already exists, or to start from scratch.

 

Its important not to underestimate the huge costs in developing new desks - for example, the decision to code Hog III from scratch is widely credited with many of the problems that subsequently befell the company (including the eventual sacking of the chief software engineer!) On the flip side, trying to adapt a legacy product is fraught with difficulties - particularly if the gap between the existing product and the new one is very large.

 

Who's desk is gonna come out on top? Which approach will pay off? I wouldn't like to guess, but I do know that its going to make for great viewing! Life hasn't been this much fun since the great '500' Series v 'Obsession' scraps of the mid '90s! Let's sit back, relax, and watch the show unfold! :D

[gareth]

Well, it's good to see that Strand finally has a UK presence again at last. I'm looking forward to a good chat with the chaps at ABTT next week.

 

I began my theatre life on Strand desks and was effectively brought up on them - to this day, I feel most at home behind a 530. BUt the thing that nags at the back of my mind is that, despite Baz's admirable faith in the Strand brand and his heartfelt assertion that the Light Palette range will, once complete, "will pave the way for future lighting desks", I think other manufacturers have taken advantage of the long hiatus in the development of the Light Palette to steal a march on Strand and get their products to a more advanced stage. I hope I'm wrong - we'll see.

 

Andi's right, though - it's going to be a hell of a battle ... may the best men win! :D

[Albatross]

I want to assure everyone that the people at Strand/Genlyte are doing thier upmost best and giving 110% to getting the new 500 replacement i.e. the palette out as soon as they have got it to do all that they have said it will do. It will be absolutly outstanding and just like the 500 will pave the way for future lighting desks.

 

The new '500 replacement' is out already. I have one on trial for a few more days. Light Palette VL, 3000 channels, 24 subs, encoder wheels, 12 playbacks 100 matrix buttons.

 

We had a workshop on Friday (yesterday), where I got to ask all my questions.. and get some answers, from people who are selling it.

 

As has been documented elsewhere on this forum, the 'new' Light Palette is based on an existing product. However, the suggestion that this means that the new Strand desk is simply someone else's desk with a Strand logo stuck on it is extremely unfair - an awful lot of people are working hard behind the scenes to make sure this isn't true.

 

Sorry, that's wrong. It IS exactly that, someone elses software with a fancy case & the Strand name stuck on it.

 

The software is 100% Marquee/Horizon; there is no attempt to hide it in the software, the help screens, the manual, or the screen savers! It is 100 % PC/Embedded Windows XP, with faders/buttons all interfaced by USB.

Effectively a PC/Laptop product with linked hardware. The keys, faders, knobs, buttons are all very light weight & feel flimsy; there is no likelyhood of that changing to be more Strand like. The only thing that has been done is to keep the basic desk shape from the original concept for this desk; so it appears to be a Strand 500 upgrade. NONE of the original hardware or software design has been kept !

 

The USB aspect of it means that there is, and always will be, a lag between control operating & the lights reacting.. it is very noticeable. Push a slider from 0 to full quickly, and a short time later the lights will come on. Same for bump buttons.. and Go.. :-(

 

The software is under constant development; we had the latest installed while we were workshopping, and it almost imported a *.ssf file. the cues & truncated cue names came in, but cue levels were as if the console was in tracking mode, but the Strand series files were generally 'block' mode.. so didn't translate correctly.

 

Groups, subs, effects, patch all did not transfer.

It was categorically stated that Effects never will unless the effect engine in the software is radically changed, as effects as per Strand do not exist!

 

Yes, you read it correctly. you can NOT create an effect step by step, with your own properties, name it or give it a number, then add it to a cue.

The inbuilt effect system means you must create an effect using it, with it's basic properties, each time you need it. The process is painfull and convoluted.

We did discuss a work around involving creating a cue list for EACH effect wanted, and then using the macro system to add that to a cue... but again; extremely clumsy & difficult to do.

 

After the workshop, and discussions within our workplace, we are looking at other options as there is no advantage to staying Strand. No commonality at all between this and any previous Strand desk operating philosphy, so we may as well get a desk that works now, is well built, and learn that; rather than taking a chance on what looks to be a poor attempt at capturing the Strand market place.

 

I am very disappointed as I really wanted this to be good. No amount of wishing & hoping will change the reality; it's not..and won't be.

(edited to fix some spelling errors)

[martinw]

It is 100 % PC/Embedded Windows XP, with faders/buttons all interfaced by USB.

You'll really struggle to buy a lighting console that isn't architected this way. A few manufacturers will substitute Linux for XP, but the USB connection is pretty much universal. If you want to connect some buttons and faders to a PC motherboard, your options are actually pretty limited.

 

The USB aspect of it means that there is, and always will be, a lag between control operating & the lights reacting

I suspect the blame for this lies elsewhere in the system.

 

Martin - sometime console developer.

[Oovis]

I want to assure everyone that the people at Strand/Genlyte are doing thier upmost best and giving 110% to getting the new 500 replacement i.e. the palette out as soon as they have got it to do all that they have said it will do. It will be absolutly outstanding and just like the 500 will pave the way for future lighting desks.

 

Sorry, that's wrong. It IS exactly that, someone elses software with a fancy case & the Strand name stuck on it.

 

And it's also a Horizon case, for that matter.

[JMC]

Indeed, spot the difference;

 

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/f/f9/300px-Et_marquee_2.JPG

 

http://www.strandlighting.com/clientuploads/directory/products/LightPalette_Classic.jpg

[Andi_Davis]

Right, lots to reply to...

The new '500 replacement' is out already. I have one on trial for a few more days. Light Palette VL, 3000 channels, 24 subs, encoder wheels, 12 playbacks 100 matrix buttons.

 

We had a workshop on Friday (yesterday), where I got to ask all my questions.. and get some answers, from people who are selling it.

As has been documented elsewhere on this forum, the 'new' Light Palette is based on an existing product. However, the suggestion that this means that the new Strand desk is simply someone else's desk with a Strand logo stuck on it is extremely unfair - an awful lot of people are working hard behind the scenes to make sure this isn't true.

Sorry, that's wrong. It IS exactly that, someone elses software with a fancy case & the Strand name stuck on it. The software is 100% Marquee/Horizon; there is no attempt to hide it in the software, the help screens, the manual, or the screen savers!

 

Yes, the company behind the software is indeed Horizon Controls - they are a specialist lighting controls company who are owned by Genlyte (Strand's new owners). However, to suggest that the software is 100% Marquee is fundamentally wrong.

 

The core software product (called 'Horizon') forms the basis of both Marquee and Palette. However, there are already a number of very significant differences between Palette and Horizon/Marquee. This is what I was trying to say (obviously not clearly enough!) in my earlier post. A number of people are working very hard to ensure that the Horizon base is adapted and redesigned to provide the desk that we all want to see Strand produce. Possibly those people need to work even harder and adapt/redesign quicker(!) but its indisputable that the Palette OS is already significantly different to the Marquee.

 

 

It is 100 % PC/Embedded Windows XP, with faders/buttons all interfaced by USB.

Effectively a PC/Laptop product with linked hardware.

Yes indeed. What OS would be preferable I wonder... MS-DOS perhaps? Realistically embedded XP (Palette, Eos...) or Linux (Hog III, GrandMA...) are going to be the choices on offer from here on in. End of story.

 

And yes, the core hardware of desks is going to be standard PC hardware I'm afraid - its the cheapest, most logical way forward. Hugely expensive, bespoke PCBs might have been viable in the early '90s, but those days are long gone.

 

The keys, faders, knobs, buttons are all very light weight & feel flimsy; there is no likelyhood of that changing to be more Strand like.

Flimsy? Light weight? With the noticeable exception of the '500' Series this sounds EXACTLY like a Strand product! ;)

 

The only thing that has been done is to keep the basic desk shape from the original concept for this desk; so it appears to be a Strand 500 upgrade. NONE of the original hardware or software design has been kept !

Correct. And its gutting to think that all the work that went into the original desk has gone to waste. But what do we do?

 

We could all sit around gnashing our teeth for the next 10 years I suppose. But that won't succeed in changing anything. The alternative is that we all knuckle down and work to help 'new' Strand build a desk that is a worthy successor to the '500' Series. Its easy to sit on the sidelines and hurl rocks - better to be constructive don't ya think?

 

 

The software is under constant development; we had the latest installed while we were workshopping, and it almost imported a *.ssf file. the cues & truncated cue names came in, but cue levels were as if the console was in tracking mode, but the Strand series files were generally 'block' mode.. so didn't translate correctly. Groups, subs, effects, patch all did not transfer.

No-one said it was perfect yet... but that's where the 'constantly under development software' bit comes in! A bit of patience will be called for here - even with the best of intentions these things won't be fixed overnight! But there's every reason to think that they will eventually be got right. Hopefully soon!

 

 

It was categorically stated that Effects never will unless the effect engine in the software is radically changed, as effects as per Strand do not exist!

 

Yes, you read it correctly. you can NOT create an effect step by step, with your own properties, name it or give it a number, then add it to a cue.

The inbuilt effect system means you must create an effect using it, with it's basic properties, each time you need it. The process is painfull and convoluted.

We did discuss a work around involving creating a cue list for EACH effect wanted, and then using the macro system to add that to a cue... but again; extremely clumsy & difficult to do.

Interesting point. The Palette effects engine is primarily designed to create cyclical-style effects - both with intensities and attributes. In this respect it's kinda Hog-like - any '500' Series users who have wrestled with GeniusPro's rather home-made Shape Generator, or spent their tea-breaks building movement effects using the GeniusPro effects engine will be in seventh heaven! Perhaps even more significantly, the effect properties 'track' through the cue sequences in which they are recorded - this radically simplifies working with complex cue sequences containing multiple effects (in other words, you don't have to start at the top of the sequence and 'cut' through to make sure you've got all the right effects running at a given point!) Again this is a major plus point.

 

However, what the Palette doesn't currently do so well is sequential effects in the style of the '500' Series effects engine. For me the jury is still out on whether this will prove a critical problem, or whether a combination of multiple cue lists and the effects engine as described above will provide all the necessary functionality. To be continued...

 

 

I am very disappointed as I really wanted this to be good. No amount of wishing & hoping will change the reality; it's not..and won't be.

We all want Strand to build a great follow-up to the '500' Series... apart from sentimental attachments to the desk, it will simplify all of our lives massively if we can have a desk that builds on (and is compatible with) what we already know.

 

The Palette isn't that desk. Yet. But taken on its own terms its a powerful product, and it doesn't take a huge stretch of the imagination to see that with time, money, and hard work this potential could be harnessed to build the desk that we all want it to be. But it won't happen overnight. Its early days for the 'new' Palette - lets not be too quick to judge. :D

 

 

And it's also a Horizon case, for that matter.

Some things, however, are sort of indisputable... ;)

[Nick S]

It is 100 % PC/Embedded Windows XP, with faders/buttons all interfaced by USB.

You'll really struggle to buy a lighting console that isn't architected this way. A few manufacturers will substitute Linux for XP, but the USB connection is pretty much universal. If you want to connect some buttons and faders to a PC motherboard, your options are actually pretty limited.

Indeed:

Frog 2 - XP Embedded (currently)

ETC Eos - XP Embedded

Congo - XP Embedded

Compulite Vector - XP Embedded & VxWorks

Hog iPC - XP Embedded

 

...you'd be hard pressed to find something that didn't run XP, and at the embedded level there's not an awful lot of difference in terms of stability between XP or Linux. In my own experience, it's neither here nor there.

 

The USB aspect of it means that there is, and always will be, a lag between control operating & the lights reacting

I suspect the blame for this lies elsewhere in the system.

Exactly - if there is a lag (I've no idea, I haven't played with the Pallette), it's certainly not due to the USB. My keyboard and mouse I'm currently typing on now have no lag at all, as does my set of USB faders for music work...