Help finding platform/ladder/tower -what do i want?

[eldar]

Hello all,

 

I'm after some advice please.

I am looking into buying a new 'thing' so that I can work at height. At the moment I am happily using my trusty zargies but our H+S person has informed me that these are no longer safe enough and we need to get some form of platform type thing for me to use. Putting the H+S rahhhhhhh aside (don't get me started!) I am looking into what I could swop my zargies for...

 

For info,

 

The heights I rig at are 4m and 3m -that's the height of the lighting bars.

 

The job that will be done from the ladders will almost always be lighting rigging and focusing.

 

I need to be able to build and move it by myself, I have no assistance.

 

It needs to pack up fairly small -we have no real storage space, it may have to be packed up and stored in an outbuilding. It will also be used possibly several times a week and put away again each time.

 

Something without outriggers would be very useful as the theatre space is awkward in places and one of the bars is almost above the front row of the seating -I can fit a ladder in the gap but not with outriggers on it.

 

 

From what I can see so far my options are either a tallascope that I have nowhere to store once it's down or a scaff tower that will be a nightmare to build and take down three times a week!

I have stumbled across ESCA platforms which look good, basically a glorified ladder with a platform. They even look like I can move myself around on them from the top -surely not?!? Does anyone have any experience of these?

 

Any help or advice would be appreciated, surely everyone else in this industry is also having to change from ladders if I am being made to (they quoted something about me not being allowed to go above 2m without a platform or possibly harness -I'm still investigating into this as H+S laws are confusing me).

 

Thanks in advance

 

eldar

 

EDIT - I have just found a post on Blue Room about the ESCA -sounds good. I will probably try to get a demo of it so I can have a look. Now if only they did one with a platform big enough for two people.

And to add to the idea of getting an ESCA - I will obviously get myself trained to use it correctly -but what about the amateur groups that use the theatre? I'm not sure I fancy handing it over to joe public who have hired the space. It all sounds good -except other people than me may have to use it.

[Ynot]

At the moment I am happily using my trusty zargies but our H+S person has informed me that these are no longer safe enough and we need to get some form of platform type thing for me to use.

Sorry, but I HAVE to ask....

Just WHY have the H & S people condemned the use of your Zarges???

 

I'm assuming you've had that conflab, but I'd be interested to hear their reasons.

 

I'm also assuming that these are internal H & S wallabies, not your actual HSE inspectors....?

 

Cheers

TD

[DavidLee]

At the moment I am happily using my trusty zargies but our H+S person has informed me that these are no longer safe enough and we need to get some form of platform type thing for me to use.

Sorry, but I HAVE to ask....

Just WHY have the H & S people condemned the use of your Zarges???

 

I'm assuming you've had that conflab, but I'd be interested to hear their reasons.

 

I'm also assuming that these are internal H & S wallabies, not your actual HSE inspectors....?

Seems pretty odd, unless the ladders are too short for the venue.

I would insist on a reasonable explanation as to why the industry standard access equipment is unsafe in an Arts Centre in Southampton.

If you are not convinced by it then contact HSE for proper advice.

 

Try

 

Sarah Jardine

HM Inspector of Health and Safety

Entertainment and Leisure Sector

City Gate West

Toll House Hill

Nottingham NG1 5AT

VPN 513 2813

Tel 0115 971 2813

 

Sarah.Jardine@hse.gsi.gov.uk

 

David

[eldar]

Yep it is an internal H+S rep that has asked me to find an alternative to using my zargies. Something about not being allowed to go above 2m without a platform or harness?

I am in the process of looking into what that alternative could be -and to be honest I am finding that the alternatives come with other problems for the H+S rep of me putting my back out building the thing and so on. Especially when I have to work 'alone', all the building, moving and going up to height is done by me as technician. There is for me an issue that any tower etc may double the time it takes for me to do the job -but that's not the issue right now.

 

Looking into the WAH stuff I am accidentally putting together a case for my zargies being the best option. The H+S rep is being very good about understanding that I am the person who uses the ladders (or alternative) and that I have the experience of working in the theatre and technical environment -to be good back to the rep I am going to follow up and put together any other suitable options -basically to keep happy families at work I am still going to look into the alternatives.

 

One major consideration is that although I am the centre technician and trained etc -occasionally we do have other companies using the equipment including amateur groups. Putting any issues of insurance etc aside we would like to have access to height that all parties can use safely and a platform or tower may be more suitable for this.

 

eldar

[herb]

Oh dear. Another 'ladders are banned' thing.

 

Your H&S fella is sort of correct in that finding a better means of access would be preferable, but ladders are not banned in case that is what you were led to believe.

 

The 'above 2m' rule went out with the new work at height regs and is now a duty to prevent all falls from any height. Even 6". The regs give a heirarchy of means of access to go through until you find a safe workable solution

For short duration work such as you describe the step ladder is an acceptable means of access providing you can maintain 3 points of contact with the ladder (2 feet and one hand), is stable, in good state of repair etc etc.

 

For the sort of heights you are working at (ie less than 4m) a harness is not going to be much help by the time the shock absorber has deployed you will either have already hit the floor or be dangling frustratingly some 6" above it and needs a secure point to connect to - preferably above you. Will you be able to unclip and reclip safely as you move along? Do you have a plan for rescue should you fall?

 

As you have said a talle will be impractical for your venue in terms of storage and powered access equipment is almost certainly out of the question I would have thought.

 

Some sort of tower would be the answer they are looking for but a single rise will be all that will fit under your bars (plus handrail) and will not be as easy to fit around set/scenery or whatever. Plus they are a bit fiddly to put together alone and you will have to stretch up to reach the higher bars. If you move the platform up a level on the handrail section you then leave yourself with an inadequate rail. And then you have to be able to move it off the stage onto the floor to reach FOH, maybe build another rise - alone. Again not a really practical or cost effective solution.

 

I understand the ESCA is available is a number of formats/heights so which one will fit all your needs? There have been some comments on a previous thread that weren't all that complimentary. Look carefully. It is still fundamentaly a ladder however and your risk is in the climbing up and down on the whole. Hopefully the wheels are lockable too.

 

Ask your H&S person for their risk assessment and go through it with him/her. Ask them for assistance in sourcing appropriate kit and while you are at it ask for the budget for it too.

 

Your biggest problem in my opinion is lone working by the sound of it. I think they are taking the 'hot topic' of work at height in isolation and not considering all the risks you face in your job or how it is carried out. They should be helping you to work safely rather than issuing dictats from on high with no understanding of the role.

 

I wont comment on the amateurs needing to use equipment supplied by the venue and the possible exposure to litigation.

 

Sorry...nearly went off on one there.

Good luck

Herb

[eldar]

Thanks for the reply -most useful. In the last hour since I put up the original post I have been looking into this and I agree with almost all that you have said.

 

And incidentally I never said that I was being 'banned' from using my ladders - simply that the H+S rep would like me to find a better or safer way of rigging. I was looking into other options -It would appear from all I have found that the safest and best way is most likely going to be my ladders! I'm fairly lucky that the H+S gets me involved in making the decisions because they do trust my experience and judgement, but they still have the right to always look out for my safety and I won't argue that. It's basically making me have to justify how I work and look at if my working practices are safe -which I do think they are now.

 

As for amateur companies using equipment -I am thinking that having a scaff tower that can be used for them when they come in rather than have them use ladders is the best option. I'd pre build it and factor that time into what we charge them for technical assistance! Basically to tailor the equipment to whomever is using it. and then I have a tower for any long tricky rig days but still have my zargies for quick and easy days.

 

Thanks for the help -It's good to have other tech bodies back up my thinking, if you guys all disagree with what I am doing then I know I need to look again.

 

eldar

[herb]

Hmmn.

Sorry about that use of 'banned' poor choice of words but a reflection on what I come across quite a lot.

Glad to hear you have a cooperative and supportive rep.

 

In reference to the liability of others using your kit I would suggest caution. Even if you put a tower together properly there is little to stop them modifying it, misusing it and so on and as you were the one that built it you may find fingers being pointed should the worst happen. Vicarious liability I believe it is called. If not you personally then perhaps your employer. It would be best to arrange for these groups to have training in safe erection and use of the tower and setting down rules for use that they must follow. Get them to sign something and make sure your backside is covered.

 

It is a litigous world these days sadly and I'm sure these things are in your mind.

cheers

herb

[eldar]

Yes I am lucky to have a rep who is helpful.

 

And as for the amateur groups -that will be coming up in my meeting to discuss all that I have discovered about platforms and WAH. Your advice is useful though -thanks. at all times I plan to keep my own arse covered, and safely off the ground!

 

 

eldar

[Ynot]

Especially when I have to work 'alone', all the building, moving and going up to height is done by me as technician. There is for me an issue that any tower etc may double the time it takes for me to do the job -but that's not the issue right now.

I'd be careful about statements like this - I note you say 'alone', in inv commas, but that IS something I'd caution against. Don't know how seriously you say 'alone' but in my (amateur) venue we don't allow anyone to work at height without at least one other person in the same space.

[DavidLee]

I'd be careful about statements like this - I note you say 'alone', in inv commas, but that IS something I'd caution against. Don't know how seriously you say 'alone' but in my (amateur) venue we don't allow anyone to work at height without at least one other person in the same space.

Worse still you also mentioned lone rigging. This must involve carrying lanterns up a ladder, with only one hand free for climbing - not safe at the best of times but really bad news when working alone. Ideally you should be secure at the top of the ladder with an assistant hauling the lantern from below, with a line over the bar.

 

An unwillingness to meet the expense of another employee is not a valid reason for your employers to force you to work at unneccessary personal risk. Also under the law you are also responsible for your own safety, along with your employer, so you should discuss this problem with your H&S person and work out procedures that will ensure your safety. This will not be sorted out by providing a tower that you will probably wind up erecting on your own at even greater risk of personal injury!

 

At very least you MUST insist on an assistant whilst rigging. If you decide to continue focussing alone then you should consider wearing a lone-worker alarm. These devices monitor your movement and if you are completely still for more than a preset period will sound an alarm via a wireless link - so that at least you can be expected to be found whilst your body's still warm if you're lying in a crumpled heap on the floor.

 

David

[neild]

Hi Seb!

 

Sounds to me like the crux of the problem is staffing levels; lone working has to be a big no no, especially if you're in the air! There is no problem with you using a Zargee, particularly if they're regularly inspected etc etc, but the problem is probably to do with you either having to carry stuff up with you, or hauling stuff up once your at the top. If you had a 2nd person with you then they could do the hauling so you can maintain the all important 3 points of contact!

 

Sounds like your H&S bod is open to suggestion, and if you can prove to the powers-that-be the need for an additional body, then you should be ok. PM me or give me a call - it'd be good to catch up!!!

 

Neil

[rob_cheese]

I came across this topic which seems to ask a similar question to mine - What should I use to rig safely on bars at ~3 to 4m height? I've found several references to Zarges dotted about, but when checking out their website they make quite a few different products! Which would people recommend?

 

To give a bit more background, I'm in an amateur group using a small hall and most of the lamps stay in place. Thus, the main task is re-focussing, changing colours etc. Of course there is occasional re-rigging, but never for more than one to two hours at a time, so I believe that a good sturdy pair of steps is the best option.

 

What products would you suggest, and are there any things to look out for when purchasing? Any other comments welcome!

 

Thanks

 

Rob

[Seano]

I've found several references to Zarges dotted about, but when checking out their website they make quite a few different products! Which would people recommend?

 

The ladders that people are most often talking about when they say 'Zarges' in a showbiz context are this kind of thing.

[boatman]

This ladder is good quality. I have just bought the 12 rung version (£199.95) for our Community Theatre as the FOH bars are a little higher than yours.

[rob_cheese]

Thanks for the suggestions - it's given me a good start.

 

Probably best to actually measure the bar heights to check my guestimates aren't a mile out before going much further!

 

Cheers

 

Rob