church acoustics & IEM

[simplay13]

Hi

 

I'm looking for some advice about in ear monitoring. The church I am currently working with holds its services in a very large ex warehouse. The sound quality on a sunday morning leaves alot to be desired mainly due to the acoustics of the venue, theres alot of natural but very nasty reverb, sound reflects off the hard walls and there's nothing to asorb it. The bass seems to get lost completely at the back of the venue. The church has had an acoustician in to solve some problems but its just not practical to spend tens of thousands on acoustic boards. They have had some work done which has made a big difference already. We are looking at putting up stage drapes to absorb some of the stage noise.

 

A technical upgrade has been approved, one of the main problems is the volume from stage. Because the sound bounces around so much the musicians ask for louder foldbacks. therefore alot of the noise you hear in the congregation is from the monitors. One solution is to to use IEM, now only two of the musicians are free to move as the rest are tied to wired mics or are drummers etc. Therefore I was thinking that I give each person a fixed IEM and other two wireless. The problem I have is what to use for this, in the past I have used the small format Mackie Tapco mixers and used the headphone out. But 8 of these seems abit excessive and also abit clumsy given that the musician would have to have the mixer at least waist level so some kind of stand would be needed for each mixer. The other suggestion is to use the clip on type from Thomann etc - but abit worried about sound quality, duarabilty etc. The other suggestion is a headphone mixer from Behringer as all the backing singers stand in aline this would probally work quite well.

 

Has anyone tried the idea of multiple fixed IEM before? Any suggestions or comments? Anybody used the Thomann clip-on variety before?

 

Thanks for your help.

 

Simeon Playford

[Bobbsy]

Not exactly the same situation as you, but a qualified "yes". For fixed theatre orchestras I quite often use headphone amps and wired 'phones (usually conventional closed cup ones, not specialist IEMs). In this situation, it's not usually necessary to create a totally individual mix for every musician...working with the MD, we can usually come up with 2 or 3 more general mixes. (I suspect that the closed cup 'phones have a psychoacoustic effect of making the musicians happier with a more general "band mix".)

 

Clearly, you'd have to adapt this a bit since you wouldn't want your chorus wearing huge studio headphones, but as a basic idea it might be worth exploring.

 

Bob

[Matt Riley]

Hi, I think a lot of us can feel your pain atm - Its great to hear you guys are looking to IEM for solutions.

 

Firstly, the wireless. Sennheiser Evo 300 series wireless IEMs are the safest bet- the cheaper shure ones (psm 200, 400 etc) work fine, but aren't very frequency agile. The Senn's come with their earbuds which are ok, and take aa batteries which will keep costs low. If you're only looking for one mix between the two on wireless packs, you could save money by just buying an extra reciever for the other person, and tuning it to the same frequency.

 

For the wired stuff, I'd invest in some reasonable earbuds - i.e. not thomann cheapies, as they will be the bit which makes the most difference. Following that then a reasonably priced headphone amp should work fine - I've seen the behringer 20 quid specials work effectively - just remember that you'll have to get some 3.5mm extension leads for it that are long enough for the singers to move around a little bit, and it might be wise to put a hard knee comp in line on the mixes to give some protection to the users.

 

The final thing would be ambient miking - so much of the whinging I hear about IEMs comes from people who, for some mysterious unknown reason feel disconnected from the audience when they turn up with their new shiny in ears and the mons guy mixes it just like it were a pair of LE 400s. Get something like a PZM or a couple of condensers on stage and feed them into the monitor mix. It is also a good idea if the engineer has some way of hearing what the musos are hearing - like some of a similar type of earbuds plugged into the cue bus of the desk.

 

Other ways to look at this solution would be hotspot monitors, or similar for the backing singers, or possibly the 'hearback' system, which is a cheaper version of the aviom system designed for this kind of application.

 

Peace,

 

Matt

[bigglesuk]

Using IEM's in church has many pro's but also many con's. You will find that some members of the band(s) will love them, others won't. One of the main issues using them in church is the band being able to talk to each other on stage.

 

My church meets in a school sports hall and we have installed floor to ceiling drapes around three of the walls which are on runners so they tuck away. Fourth wall can't have a track for the drapes due to sports equipment getting in the way. Although this isn't the ideal solution it was the most cost affective. Acoustic engineers will say that isn't the best thing to do, its normally better than having no drapes. There is a church venue in Chichester that use an old warehouse and they have drapes that cover the top half of the walls, tends to work quite well. They also have floor to ceiling drapes behind the stage.

 

As for the band saying they can't hear the monitors well enough. Do each of the band members have their own monitor? Do they have their own mix? How are the monitors positioned? Quite often most of the sound isn't being aimed at their ears, angling up the monitors so they point to the musicians ears rather than their chest can help.

 

If any of the above helps then great, otherwise good luck in trying to improve things.

 

 

Adam

[dbuckley]

I like the look of the Mackie HMX-56 for this sort of application, but have yet to try one.

 

Anyone tried anything like this?

[simplay13]

Hi thanks for all the replies so far.

 

Thanks for all the advice from Matt Riley - I was considering whether audience miking would be needed and you have just confirmed it! Also thanks for the advice about earphones - we're looking at purchasing Shure E3c or similar. Have been looking at the Senn Evo 300 and with extra recievers.When you say the 20 quid Behringer jobbies - do you mean the little UB mixer series?

 

Also thanks Adam, some of the technical upgrade budget is going towards drapes around the stage so that should make a vast difference. In answer to your questions about wedges - yes each musician has there own wedge on stage and own monitor mix. Monitor poistioning is difficult due to space and stage layout but we do try for optimum placement.Some of the wedges has been placed on flights to get them nearer to the musician and that has helped considerably.

 

Just a few more questions - we are considering hiring in some wireless IEMs for the band to try for a couple of weeks do you think this is a worthwhile exercise or just a waste of money considering most of them probally wont have a preference?

Also do you think its worth having a seperate monitor desk for this type of application? I would also be really intrested to hear from anyone who has used the clip-on fixed IEM boxes.

[Willott]

For the headphone amp, I think prev OP is referring to the ones at bottom of this page:

Behringer audio tech

 

Found the HA400 for <£20 on fleabay. or the HA4700 for £75

 

(apologies, that's my only input... don't relevant knowledge, but have time to trawl internet!)

[Matt Riley]

When you say the 20 quid Behringer jobbies - do you mean the little UB mixer series?

 

When one of our worship leaders went out and bought a cheap headphone amp as an experiment, he got one of the behringer miniamp 800s. He seemed to be happy - although my estimate of £20 might have been a bit hopeful. Looking at it again, you could use something like the microamp 400 (as long as it is of good enough quality) to send an aux fed mix off the console to in the 'mix' input and then route their mic through the XLR input/loopthrough before sending their mic down the snake so they can mix more of their own vocal in if they want.

 

Just a few more questions - we are considering hiring in some wireless IEMs for the band to try for a couple of weeks do you think this is a worthwhile exercise or just a waste of money considering most of them probally wont have a preference?

Also do you think its worth having a seperate monitor desk for this type of application? I would also be really intrested to hear from anyone who has used the clip-on fixed IEM boxes

 

The most common clip on fixed IEMs to which you refer would be the garwood wired ones - lots of touring drummers like them and it should be relatively easy to hire them in for this very reason, however it would probably be cheaper to just buy it and try it with units like the smaller behringer ones retailing for a grand total of £16 each.

 

WRT a split and other mons desk, the classic answer is 'it depends'. At work, I'm often all for getting a seperate mons desk in whenever possible, however for this application, unless the musicians are all happy to do their own mix, then I wouldn't go down the significant expense of putting a mons desk out and doubling the amount of volunteers needed. Instead I'd do a sort of 'more of me' thing by choosing a headphone amp with a line level and an XLR input, so the muso can add more of themselves to the mix if they want.

 

M

[MarkPAman]

Also do you think its worth having a separate monitor desk for this type of application?

 

Yes. It should be better for the performers, as they'll get closer to what they want & quicker. It will be better for the FOH engineer as they can forget about monitors & concentrate on what the audience (congregation) hears.

 

But, it needs an extra, competent person to work the board, and the extra equipment. If you have that then yes, use a separate desk.

[paulears]

If the IEMs just are not going to be an option, then I have had some success with small compact loudspeakers on stands - getting the loudspeaker in close means level can be lower and they can point straight at the performer other than up in the vague direction from the floor. IEMs are still better, but spkrs on mic stands a good second choice

[simplay13]

Thanks all for the replies so far.

 

Thanks for clearing up about the Behringer items. They seem to have quite alot of different types of headphone amp in production at the moment. Probally buy several and see what fits best.

 

Paulears - I had considered the small monitor option, I have some JBL Control 1's I use quite reguarely for smaller worship setups. But for this type of band they like things like alot of kick in the monitors and heaps of keys all over the stage. So they wouldnt be up to the task unfortunately, thanks for the input though.

 

I think after the comments on the monitor desk I probally won't be doing that option. Although we have do a spare GL2200 lying around, a competent operator would be harder to find and also the cost/hassle of splitting the multicore.

 

I think im going to try the smaller Behringer mixers and see what happens. I'll post back once we have had a chance to try different ideas out.

 

Thanks for all the help so far.

 

Simeon Playford

[bigglesuk]

Having a separate monitor desk is always a plus for both the engineer(s) and the bands, only issue is getting people skilled enough to do it. Most churches struggle to find enough people to operate one desk let alone two.

 

From your last post I feel that education of the musicians is possibly needed. A gig situation, loads of stuff loud through monitors doesn't really matter as much. However, we are discussing church worship meetings where the band need to understand that the meeting isn't about them rocking it out on stage. Sometimes trying to get people to understand "less is more" is quite hard.

 

I have a good friend who uses wired IEM's for the drums and keyboard at his church. As others have suggested they just use a little Behringer mixer to amplify the in ears and the system works well. Another option when using IEMs is the Aviom system which I've heard is exceptional, though there is a price attached with that.

 

Where abouts in the country are you based?

[basilbrush1982]

Greetings, I am said friend of Biggles UK. The big thing with regards to IEM is you need to have a skilled sound engineers. I am very fortunate to have a team that are very very good. One concern is that if someone accidentally sends a huge signal down a wedge (such as clipping etc.) then it's not really going to hurt but if you've got IEM then it is! You could damage someones ears. Some wireless IEM will have limiters in but wired options won't. So my first recommendation is examine your engineers, DON'T do the IEM thing if your engineers can't mix a very good FOH sound.

 

I can back up Biggles' recommendation of the Aviom system as I have heard very good things about them and one of the companies I work for can supply it although you may find it pricey, it allows each musician to mix their own monitor. The monitor desk thing is great if you can guarantee two skilled engineers every week but most churches can't. I can also back up what Biggles says about less is more, people tend to ask for more in their monitors than less so try to encourage them to turn down things as well. I had a situation recently where a monitor got very loud but when I went and listened it was because they set the keys too high and were trying to get everything over it. Also do a full sound check every week, it takes time but it means you always start from zero rather than where you were last week which just gets ridiculously loud very quickly.

 

I would highly recommend trying them if you think your going to go down this route - you don't want to buy them and then no one like them. We are currently trialling them and the biggest thing people don't like is the feeling of being "disconnected" from the congregation so some have tried them with one ear. It's a process we're trialling and hope to make a decision soon. With regards to the earpieces we've used Shure E2's for the drums and keys but have recently tried the Ultimate ears Super.fi 3 which I have found for £57 on the internet. Their worth trying if you do this.

 

With regards to the acoustics of the venue it is worth spending some money getting it right, if you get it wrong it can kill the worship! There are people who can sort acoustics out for you. Let me know if this interests you.

[bigglesuk]

Hey Basil, nice to see you on here at last.

 

To stop feeling disconnected from the congregation/audience, mics can be placed to pick them up. These can then be fed into the IEM's.

[simplay13]

Thanks for the reply basilbrush1982.

 

Just to answer on some of your ideas, we will be running limiters on the wired IEM's. This was mentioned already by another poster. The Aviom system unfortunately is too pricey for us but thanks for the advice.

 

In the case of less is more, yes thats true. We always work on the system of turning something down rather than anything up in the monitor mix. But of course the musicians have to be able to hear the rest of the band, I work very closely with the band to ensure they are happy.Full sound checks are done before every service.

 

Thanks for the advice on the ultimate ears earphones I've been looking at them recently and was wondering about the quality - do you use them for vocals at all?

 

The acoustics of the venue - have been a touring engineer for a while now I've come across pretty much every acoustic good or bad you can have. The amount of acoustic treatment this building would need to make it right would cost way beyond our budget and probably way above many others as well. Also due to the fact that the church will probably need a much bigger building within a couple of years - we don't want to spend the vast amount it would need.

 

Another couple of questions for the forum.

 

I have been looking at different types of wireless IEMS - I know some opinions have been expressed to preference but has anyone else got any views on the best IEM system. I'm currently looking at the Sennheiser EW300 series but they are quite abit more expensive.Apart from the frequency thing has anybody noticed anything else different between the Sennheiser and Shure models.

 

Also stage drapes for acoustic treatment - could someone suggest a suitable supplier they could recommend. There's a overwhelming choice on google!

 

Thanks once again for all the replies and help so far.

 

Simeon Playford