Risk assessment in amateur theatre

[sclg]

I've recently become involved with a local amateur group who have owned their own theatre for the last 50 years and thus know the venue inside out.

They employ no one and everything is done by volunteers.

When a show is put on, those involved undoubtedly 'do' a risk assessment in that everything is discussed and possible problems fixed. However nothing is ever written down.

I've poked about on the HSE website which SEEMS to suggest that as there are no emplyees, nothing HAS to be written down. However I suspect that not doing so does leave one open to problems if anything did go wrong.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Thanks

 

Steve

[paulears]

with an organisation like this, the law generally treats them as a company. So if they have a consitution - which to have a bank account, they certainly must have, then the elected officers are legally responsible in exactly the same way that the board of a company are. So somebody almost certainly will be responsibile for H&S - if they have a licence for the venue to sell booze, and operate the theatre, then already the local council must have somebodies name.

 

Sometimes amateur societies have this kind of attitude - but it won't cut with the authorities. Just make sure the buck when it is passed doesn't fall on you.

[frazer]

I have always understood it that the law states that risks should be assessed, not a document produced to prove it.

 

Please correct me if I am wrong. A Risk Assessment doesn't have to be a formal document that someone has spent a whole day writing, it can simply be signs around the building warning people of certain dangers. Such as hot water from the taps and high voltage.

 

My local amateur group have compiled a list of certain rules concerning health and safety that everyone is expected to read and follow. As far as I know, there isn't an official document.

 

However at work, I am constantly writing formal risk assessments and presenting it to my line manager. Being an educational environment health and safety is taken very seriously (and understandably).

 

Frazer

[bruce]

My understanding is that while simply "assessing" may be adequate, at a practical level you have to be able to demonstrate that you have carried out that assessment, M'Lud... hence the need for a formal record rather than just "looking at stuff and sorting things if they need sorted".

[frazer]

Would a sign indicating and warning of a particular hazard not count as someone actually thinking about the risk it could cause and then taking action to prevent it causing any injury.

 

I am very interested in what everyone thinks. Could this be made into a poll, I.e formal written record or not? Obviously this is specifically concerning amateur theatre groups.

 

Don't get me wrong I am a fan of a producing formal records, it certainly saves me time when we have visiting companies. But I didn't think the document is compulsory.

 

Frazer

[paulears]

A poll is pointless - all you'll get are opinions right or wrong. I understand you work in a school or college? How would you prove anything to the OFSTED people? They don't deal with death, or serious injury, but they don't accept a sign on the wal saying LEARN - WORK HARD!

 

Sorry if this is a bit silly, but when it comes down to you having to be the one responsible for an accident, pointing to a sign is not enough, ever! The obvious question in court to you would be "At what time did Mr X read the notice?" You don't have an answer. The point of formalising risk assessment is an audit trail - you can say when where and how the risk was managed. There isn't anything wrong with verbal statements or mental records, but they are damn hard to prove when it suddenly becomes vital.

 

I'm in the middle of a court case where a student at my old college was alledgedly injured while I was in charge. I have been asked already to provide risk assessment documenation, give statements to solicitors and answer loads of questions on an incident I'm told happened 3 years ago. I have no memory of it at all, and don't work there any more. There were no formal risk assessments at that time, just like we're talking about here, and the legal beagles are making enormous statements about things my memory can't cope with. With the benefit of hindsight, written records are 100% essential. I'd strongly recommend you start doing them now, even though they are a real pain. The minute brown stuff hit the fan, my old college gave my name address and phone number to the wig wearers without any qualms at all. Not nice.

 

So any poll (please don't) that asks if they are necessary is a wate of time. Of course they are - what you mean is, you don;'t want to do them, and want a bit of backup to enable you to not do them.

 

I thought like you - I don't any longer.

[frazer]

Woah!!

 

We are talking about amateur theatre here. I have already said that I much prefer formal risk assessments as it does help you get out of the sticky stuff if necessary, and for an educational environment they are almost insisted upon.

 

But, I think you missed the question - are they compulsory for amateur groups?

 

The obvious question in court to you would be "At what time did Mr X read the notice?" You don't have an answer.

 

But also what about "At what time was Mr X informed that the water was so hot it would scald him?" If there was no sign then he wouldn't have known.

 

I don't mean to argue. I find this subject really interesting.

 

Frazer

[dbuckley]

It may be amateur theatre, but from a HSE perspective, these people are "at work".

[Ike]

But, I think you missed the question - are they compulsory for amateur groups?

Yes, however I really don't think that should be the question being asked. Even if it wasn't compulsory (which it is) you would be very foolish not to carry one out and keep a written record of it. It would be similar to not recording portable appliance tests and just expecting people to remember what is safe. Why take the risk?

 

As far as the HSE is concerned you do have employees even if you don't pay them.

 

You could always give the HSE Infoline a ring on 0845 345 0055, their number can also be found at the top of the safety forum.

[Brian]

1) Everybody ought to do risk assessments.

 

2) If you 'employ' five or more people you must record the findings of your risk assessment.

 

3) 'Employment' in this context requires neither payment for services nor contracts of employment.

[frazer]

Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

I think I have been corrected, sorry.

 

After having a brief google search found this. http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/law.pdf

 

Frazer

[Roderick]

I believe the most important thing to understand here is the difference between a risk assessment and a sign.

If we analyse the sign that says 'Warning - hot water may scald you', why is the sign there? The answer would be that the water is extremely hot. By putting up the sign you make a few assumptions: 1-That people actually pay attention, 2-That the sign is visible, 3-That the person can read and understand the sign. The latter is where the whole thing becomes unstuck, what if the person in question is blind? what if the person can't read? what if the person doesn't understand English? But more importantly, by putting up a sign you have recognised a hazard but opted for the least effective way to control it. The most effective way of prevent people from scalding themselves on hot water is to reduce the water temperature, so why didn't you do that? There may well be valid reasons for not lowering the temperature, and thus eliminating the hazard, but that is the bit you need to be able to prove when challenged. Enter the paper trail.

And let's just for a moment leave the courtroom and the judges alone, I believe everyone, whether professional, amateur, volunteer, whatever, has a moral obligation to provide a safe place of work. Far too much emphasis is put on 'being sued', forget it for a moment. Ask yourself if you can live with the knowledge that you could have done something better to prevent an accident? The bottomline is that writing down a train of thought is that it also allows others to look at it and make better suggestions.

And writing a risk assessment is not the drama (no pun intended) that many people seem to make of it. All productions have regular production meetings, why not put risk assessment on the agenda? It allows everyone to raise concerns and everyone else to comment and suggest ways to control the risk.

In my opinion there is no defendable reason not to produce a risk assessment for any place outside the home environment. But do it for your own peace of mind, if it helps you out in a court case, that is a bonus.

[paulears]

I suspect the word 'amateur' colours things here. Think about the local village hall building - run by an amateur committee of locals, the local Scout Hall, again, volunteers, not paid staff and even St John Ambulance/Red Cross. As Brian has said, money or status has nothing to do with responsibilities under legislation regarding H&S.

 

I think in fact it would be fair to say that people who don't do things on a day to day basis, need protection more than those who do!

[Brian]

I know I've post this link before but it's well worth a read as it'll help understand 'How' the HSE thinks.

 

The HSE Enforcement Guide.

[sclg]

Many thanks for all your replies. First, let me emphasise that I was not asking this question in the hope of finding a 'get-out'!

I also totally agree with Roderick's comment "I believe everyone, whether professional, amateur, volunteer, whatever, has a moral obligation to provide a safe place of work".

Equally, those of you involved with amateur theatre will know that it is quite difficult to get people to undertake what they perceive as extra burocracy - especially when they have been doing things for years and - rightly or wrongly - think they know everything about it!

 

I'm really after finding ways of encouraging them to do formally what they probably already do informally.

Trying to find the happy medium of having a safe environment along with documenting it as such with the least effort!!

 

Incidentally, regarding the comment "As far as the HSE is concerned you do have employees even if you don't pay them."

Admittedly it was about RA for the new Fire Regulations, but when I talked to the HSE thay were clear that we didn't employ anyone as far as they were concerned and that the 'less than 5 employees' conditions would apply although, of course, we still had the usual duty of care.

Despite this, I still agree that we should have written records because, as paulears implies, there is always going to be an element of covering your back!

 

Thanks again

Steve