bricummo Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 Hi guys, As you may have noticed I've been researching into buying some winch stands for my nice new moving heads. Problem is, I've just been told by one manufacturer that it doesn't matter what make or strength you get, the fact that the heads move and can shift the weight could make the stand topple over!!!! ;) I know they have to cover their backs but has anyone had any experiences like this in the past or got any ideas to fix this? I have 6 I-move 250S, and 4 I-move 250W, the washes are on two winches at the front on Scaff type t-bars, two of the spots are on the floor at the back with the other 4 on truss, but in lower ceiling venues I have to use the same system as the front. Cheers, Brian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Light Console Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 My quick answer is I don't know!Longer answer is I have never seen moving lights on a stand (and t-bar) only before. I have seen them many times on a length of truss spanning 2 winch stands. As that is what I have seen, I would only think of doing it that way. I can see what the manufacturer means though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ynot Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 Hi guys, As you may have noticed I've been researching into buying some winch stands for my nice new moving heads. Problem is, I've just been told by one manufacturer that it doesn't matter what make or strength you get, the fact that the heads move and can shift the weight could make the stand topple over!!!! :DMoving mirrors/scanners would, I suspect, be safer on a stand & T-bar, but to be perfectly honest I would NOT advocate using that arrangement for moving heads for JUST the reason you've been quoted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulears Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 perfect sense to me too - when all the movers on a bar do a sudden horizontal move, the bar does a definate swing. I can see a tall stand working near it's limits go too far with a fast shift of cog and momentum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ike Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 As others have said it probably isn't a good idea and you may also have other problems depending on the venue management. Taken from a technical rider of an international club operator:...[frestanding stands] use to support moving lights is not acceptable under any circumstances, fixing to the structure of the building is not an acceptable means of preventing overturning. You could also end up in a lot of hot water with your insurers or the HSE (under the provision and use of work equipment regulations) if you were using them against the manufacturers advice/instructions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigglesuk Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 I have a few times seen Mac 250/300's hung from a scaff bar on manfrotto stands. Normally there was only a single moving head on them with other static lights. As long as the stand isn't at full height and the head isn't being flung around madly I can't see a stand falling over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave singleton Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 I've seen it done plenty of times and done it myself. It very much depends on what the stands are, and how sturdy they are. I have seen a Mac 250 Entour with a spigott attached to the omega bracket on top of a wind up before now. It was safe because the stands were suitably braced. The only possible thing I can think of that would make it possibly un-safe for my case was that there was no form of safety in place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bricummo Posted February 22, 2007 Author Share Posted February 22, 2007 Hi guys, Thanks for all yuor input and views. Have to say it's not looking good, got me a bit worried as most of the smaller venues I play I can just about fit one stand in nevermind two with truss in between!!! :blink: What I have done in venues with low-ish ceilings is extended the stand so far up that it 'jams' against the ceiling. It's something I've always done at gigs even when I had 4 parcans a side on 2 Powerdrive Ref 40s. At least if someone barges into the stand or knocks it it will go nowhere! Although, 2 x 25kg moving heads is a different story :unsure: Not really sure if there's anything I can do but thanks for the insights guys. Cheers, Brian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrPete Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 Just a thought - you mention "jamming" the stands up to the ceiling. Now although this would kind of help stop the stand going anywhere (is it a safe enough stand to use as it is? :blink:), wouldn't it be a potential fire hazard with 4 hot parcans that close to the ceiling, especially if it's the lovely fake ceiling panel type? I thought all lanterns had info on how far it should be from anything in all 3 axis? Maybe a rethink on what to do with the moving heads - say, the 4 that are normally on truss at the rear (the ones you have problems with in low-ceiling venues) could be on a raised section of staging? Although not as good as the normal look, it would still enable you to have them in a similar position to normal but be safer sat on top of a sturdy stage than swinging on T-Bars? Anyway, back to the get-out for me...Pete :unsure: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulears Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 How about some truss, in a square, with four legs? look nice and would be much more stable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bricummo Posted February 22, 2007 Author Share Posted February 22, 2007 Hi guys, Thankfully I don't use Hot Parcans anymore! :unsure: The whole show is moving heads. The problem I've got with something like a square of truss (which would look ace BTW) is that I play clubs and pubs and as you know getting a decent stage size nevermind shape is most of the time impossible!!! Although my main reason for buying the moving heads is that I'm in a few tribute bands and play some big venues so I suppose in places like that a square of truss would be ace! (Then again try fitting THAT in the LIMELIGHT!!) :blink: Cheers, Brian. (Death by MH) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cedd Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 Could you make up a connector and plate to go into the top of a tripod stand, then sit ONE moving head directly on top of the tripod, positioned centrally over the vertical shaft? Puts your moving head the other way up to a t bar, and you'd need a tripod per head, but it puts yor weight on the centre of the tripod. You could even look at the 6-legged tripods (I know it wouldn't be a tripod anymore!) for extra stability.It would also allow you to have them all at different heights. Could make a nice effect if their beams were all panning between each other maybe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jivemaster Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 Are the stands you intend to use actually rated for a dynamic (moving) load? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ynot Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 Could you make up a connector and plate to go into the top of a tripod stand, then sit ONE moving head directly on top of the tripod, positioned centrally over the vertical shaft?IMHO? NO. Ever took a tripod and pushed it from the top - even without a load on it?Depending which way you pushed (ie whether direction against a long leg or between the legs) they can be surprisingly easy to topple if pushed enough. And the taller the tripod the easier it gets. Stick a heavy load on the 'pod, which is moving dynamically and randomly, and you create a potentially disastrous situation. Remember that no tripod is made to NOT topple is pushed far enough.I've seen several examples of a speaker tripod at a disco knocked over by a drunken punter stumbling against one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ike Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 The problem I have is that there are so many variables you couldn't possibly make a hard and fast rule and the calculations are certainly not trivial. While calculating the vector for the largest magnitude centripetal force from a rotating mover wouldn't be too hard it gets more complicated when you bring both pan and tilt into it and much more complicated when you bring in another fixture mounted off axis moving independently. There may even be a problem with resonance which I'm not sure anyone here would even have a chance at calculating or predicting. The comments about no fast movements are also potentially a bit dodgy, none of the lights you mention (or any that I know of for that matter) have fail safe methods of limiting the movement speed, DMX is not designed for safety critical applications and neither are any DMX controllers. For these reasons the stands must be safe for the fastest movements the fixtures are capable of either in normal or fault conditions. Now this:What I have done in venues with low-ish ceilings is extended the stand so far up that it 'jams' against the ceiling. It's something I've always done at gigs even when I had 4 parcans a side on 2 Powerdrive Ref 40s. At least if someone barges into the stand or knocks it it will go nowhere!Is just plain silly and I hope nobody would think of doing it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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