Elthamrd Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 Hi all Newbie post, be gentle! I run a small PA rig, and would like to provide a live recording facility. I use a Yamaha FG24 desk. Would I be able to use the channel inserts on the desk to send to the HD24, then use the return from the recorder(via the insert) to create the live sound mix? Thanks in anticipation. paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbuckley Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 I guess so, though I'd be inclined to use insert breakout leads, which basically connect the tip and ring togetehr on the TRS jack, so that they don't actually break the audio circuit, just provide a takeoff point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulears Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 yup - no problem, as dbuckey says, run the HD24 from the inserts, with tip and ring shorted, and it is fine (to be fair, the levels will be a little low, but work fine). I have a large format 32 channel yamaha with an HD24 and do exactly this - however, to avoid losing the inserts (as there is a plug in the hole!) I've remoted the inserts to a 19" patchbay, with the feed to the HD24 taken as a 'sniff' of the pass through signal. This allows me to still patch in compressors and other gadgets, but record the untreated signal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cedd Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 Only thing I'd watch is thayou have no level control on the feed to your HDR. Whilst your gain pot should put this at a reasonable level, it means your recording is dictating the levels you use in your live mix to a certain extent. To this end I went for a zoom mrs1608 jobbie. It has its own mixer and 8 track simultaneous (enough for any pub band). Most importantly, it hasits own faders for each channel making it far more useable. It means you can tweak levels for both seperately. My desk has direct outs on the channels so I use these. A "Sniffer" on the insert point is also a very good option, but my prophecy is "if they're there, use them" and my direct outs are, so I do! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_Beech Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 Cedd, Firstly I'd question whether 8 channels IS enough for a pub band for recording purposes, whilst 8 mics may be more than enough this isn't going to get everything into the mix. Still, that aside, the idea of recording to multiple channels is that you edit the levels afterwards. With a proper gain structure there should be no problems with overs on the recorder. If you dont use the insert points then a simple tip to ring short and the output to the HD24 will be fine, the patchbay described by Paul is ideal if you need the inserts. Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulears Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 I'll just repeat for clarity what I said a bit earler. The levels shown on the HD24 will be a little lower than the levels indicated on the desk meters when setting channel gain. Certainly not a problem, there is still plenty to make noise free recordings. It just means you have to be more accurate on your desk gain setting. I very often tweak my desk gains on clusters of channels to allow straighter line fader settings, making life a little easier, mix wise, without needing to group - this isn't as easy when each channel is tweaked for 'perfect' level to the recorder, but you live with it. Personally, I can't see how 8 channels would be any good unless you group and use them - which is exactly what you're trying to avoid. Given a Zoom 'jobbie' or an HD24, there's no real contest? The zoom involves making compromises and predictions at the point of recording - how do you record the drums? mono, mixed stereo - certainly not mic per drum? If you are going to do live multi-track you need lots of tracks - nice and simple. In fact, I wish I had another 12 tracks to enable me to use the remaining channels on the desk - but most times, I keep these for 2 track playbacks, talkback mics, comms feeds etc and try to avoid letting the programme mics creep into this section if I possibly can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cedd Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 Oh I agree 24 is far better than 8, indeed I use an Alesis in a studio I work in from time to time. But, 8 tracks has always done for me in the past. The drums are taken from their subgroup (in mono normally) leaving 7 tracks for vocals, guitars and bass. I've produced some really quite nice recordings of my own band with said setup. I agree that a properly multitracked recording would be the bees knees, but if I need a proper recording for more than just reference and listening back to find where we went wrong, I'll do a proper session (still with the zoom, but properly bounced). Top and bottom of it, I'd love the Alesis, but can't afford it, would never use it to its full potential and the zoom unit does all I need, plus it has everything onboard if I really needed (not that I'd leave out proper outboard in mixdown, but I can sit at the kitchen table and run off a very rough mix in 30 minutes with just one box!). One dowside to the zoom, it's not rackable, so I've had to build my own flightcase for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulears Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 That's great cedd, but what the op asked was about his system, not yours, so although nice to know, it doesn't help him much. The other thing is that by using the group outputs on an 8 buss desk, how do you cope with stereo, or mono panned central sources. Most budget desks use the channel pan to select odd and even groupings, so if you send lead vox to 1, bvs to 2, the audience get this too - unless you have a cleverer desk? So the live sound is very odd sounding? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_Beech Posted February 14, 2007 Share Posted February 14, 2007 And this is where things go from bad to worse, you have to find the balance between the live sound and the recording. When you are grouping things live you need to mix for the recording, this can ruin your live sound. In a pub environment its likely you wont need any reinforcement of the drum kit except maybe kick drum, so you either have to have them in your live mix which has a knock on effect of having to have everything else louder in the mix, making the gig too loud and of course in turn creating more spill between mics for the recording. Or you can concentrate on your live mix and ruin the recording by having certain channels not even there. At least using the direct outs to separate channels this is (usually and wherever possible) pre fade and pre as much else as possible to allow you to mix the live gig without thinking twice about the recording. I understand what you are saying about price, they are not a cheap unit generally speaking, but are not expensive for what they do, I bought mine a year ago (almost to the date) and have made my money back easily from it from dry hires and recording shows etc. and mines the XR version. That aside, Paul's right in saying it doesn't help the OP, after all they specifically asked about the HD24, although I understand where you are coming from. Edit : must be wearing mittens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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