Putting a rig out to tender

[benweblight]

Hi,

At school we are currently working on plans for a new lighting system to be put out to tender.

Im trying to find out what the correct way do this is. I was told that we need to specify exactly what is wanted so that each company quotes us for the same thing, is this true, or can we just specify, for example x no. of dimmers and see what the company will offer us? Anything else we need to bear in mind?

[AndrewR]

It varys a lot depending on what the LEA/council/school do as policy.....

 

But, as general rules of thumb.

 

specify the type of equipment, the performance needed (so 3kw per channel for dimmers say, or light output of x lumens/ wattage for a lantern). And finally the number needed.

 

You can put in specific models and brands, but you will need to justify that, usually by saying what it does that others don't. And be prepared to get a close equivalent. Many companies will offer similar equipment that they may be able to supply cheaper. Often you will have a line like 'or equipment of comparable performance'

 

The best advice is to include little important specifics. Like 'all control wiring to conform to USITT DMX 1990' or 'All Parcans to be fitted with Parsafe's'. Otherwise you will find you get things like all your DMX wired with single pair cable (which is really annoying if you want to send 2 universes down one cable! or use RDM for that matter... ;) ) Or no plugs on anything!

 

Oh and don't forget all the extras.... hook clamps, safeties if needed, things like that.

[gareth]

As a pupil, why are you getting involved in this? I think you need to forget all this "we" talk when it comes to things like invitations to tender for the contract, Ben - I'm sure your LEA have no intention of getting pupils involved in the creation of official tender documents, so I don't think you need worry about it. By all means discuss it with the teachers and make some suggestions to them, but they're the ones who need to be doing all the liason with external suppliers.

 

I work in the electrics department of a theatre which is operated by the local county council, and as a result of our local government connections (well, that and being bloody good at what we do! ;)) we've carried out several installations in a few local (and not-so-local) schools over the last couple of years. What I can tell you is that if we had a school pupil come to us asking us to tender for the supply and installation of a new lighting system in their school, the reply would be a polite but firm one along the lines of "tell the grown-ups to get in touch and we'll talk about it with them".

[bruce]

As Gareth says, there's no reason why a pupil should be asking this sort of thing. All LEAs and councils have people who are employed to do this sort of thing. It's unlikely that even teachers would get involved, other than contributing to a general description of what is required.

 

As to putting the tender together - it depends a great deal on the total value - the higher the value, the more hoops you have to jump through. It also depends whether your LEA or council already have a framework contract in place.

 

In general, as AndrewR says, you provide a spec, not models. Eg if you were tendering for cars, you would not specifically say "I'm looking for 100 Ford Mondeos", you would say "I am tendering for 100 large family saloon cars, to the following spec". Tenderers are free to bid Ford, or Vauxhall, or whatever.

 

However, if you were already running Fords, and were just looking for 1 more, then you could legitimately specify a Mondeo....

[bjkered]

Why do we all ways knock kids on this forum. Provide some feedback as the member asked, but don't knock the kids. Perhaps they are doing it as part of a project in the Drama department linked in with a business studies course. It could be that the LEA is asking for input from the school and the school is involving the kids. Like every thing to do with e-mail and forums, we have to remember that all he details background etc is not included and hard to cover with out typing a dissertation. MY kids bring home completly different homework than I did

[paulears]

To be honest there are a number of slightly dubious practices that go on here.I've been on both ends of this and most bigger dealers also understand very well how the system works. This may ramble a bit, but here goes.

 

Writing the tender.

 

First thing is that they are not tender documents - a real tender has a fixed specification and has few areas, if any, where the people receiving the tender can tweak. This sets a level playing field, but will restrict the number of people able to bid for the job.

 

What normally happens is that the person organising the project talks to their preferred supplier. Normally the people they buy bits and pieces from continually, during the year - when many items have been bought at full retail price, with no discount. A shopping list is produced. Ths shopping list is often given to students at FE colleges as a project. Their input usually counts, I'm afraid, for little - the purchasing system being kept very private.

 

The list is drawn up and will usually include full makes and models - where the kit has to meet important requirements. Other items may be less well specified. I'm thinking here items such as '1 x 19" rack to suit" - This could be a posh Canford timber one, or a simple steel job' or a description of what it must be able to do - 'DVD recorder with firewire input'. These kind of items allow a little bit of tweaking. Cleverer, or just more experienced people who have put these things together before will also include some items that are nice to have, expensive, but not essesntial. These can be removed from the bid if money gets tight - as in the purse holder saying - "it's all ok, but I can only give you 90% of what you have requested. This way, the project doesn't fall apart. Some items on the list will be a result of the discussions with the preferred supplier, and often items others will find it difficult to source.

 

Most colleges and schools have a rule that sets a ceiling, and going over it means a minimum of 3 quotes are required. If the requests sent out are targetted properly, in most cases the preferred supplier is able to come up with the cheapest quote. Sometimes, it goes wrong and they lose the job. The fact that the winning bid is from somebody you didn't want doesn't come into it. The secret is sending the invitations to the right (or wrong) people.

 

So - if you want Robe moving heads from your local friendly dealer, then you make certain a 'give us a quote' letter goes to somebody you know doesn't stock them, who will have to buy in. This pretty well means their bid will be higher. You can, if you have a really good reason, convince the powers that be to go to somebody other than the cheapest bidder if you can show they have better service, offer training etc - but it is difficult.

 

One thing to watch is that if the order is worth a lot of money, then you must not have any personal link with the supplier apart from a professional one. If local authority, or government funding is being used then any suggestion of impropriety can get you in serious trouble. I got into trouble at college as for years I had from time to time hired my own equipment to the college. I thought I was doing them a favour - Students worked out the requirements (a project) and got in quotes - I'm sure this must really annoy the big boys they found via google. I then supplied the same kit for 20% less than the cheapest quote. I made a bit, the college saved a lot and in ignorance everyone was happy. That was until the auditors queried it. The problem was that I was privy to the three prices - and took advantage of it. My claim about the money I saved didn't hold water. Insider trading, they said. I guess they were correct. They couldn't allow this to continue as it wasn't above board. I was allowed to bid, but I had to make sure I didn't know what the other bids were - obviously impossible, so I gave up, and they spent more money and were happy. So you need to make sure when getting involved with bids that you don't pass on info from the bids as they come in to the preferred supplier. If you do, it could be rather nasty.

 

Preparing the bid document is really tricky if you want to make sure what is supplied integrates properly, has all the bits you need and can be supplied on time. My first few went badly wrong - no, maybe not 'wrong' just not as smooth as I'd have liked. Things like physical sizes not being right, connection issues, I assumed spec details rather than checked - and some were wrong. Things like allowing a dealer to swap an item that was out of stock with a 'better one at the same price'. Great, but it had +4dB inputs and the mixer couldn't drive it to full scale with it's consumer level output! Daft things like that. The Strand GSX 125 channel desk that I only bought 50 channels of software for, and didn't have any money left to upgrade!

 

Letting the students do it for real - no way! They do, I'll cheerfully admit, have some good ideas, but the real thing is too dangerous.

 

Moderation: We don't knock kids. We do strive to maintain a decent quality level, and sometimes our younger members are just a little quick to hand out advice, based on little first hand experience. In this case, I think it very unlikely the school/college people have any real input, apart from providing info to a teacher or technician who may also be inexperienced and need external assistance. If your kids came home from school and informed you they'd just designed a new building, you'd kind of assume there was an architect in there somewhere, wouldn't you?

[Funmaker]

Ok I can't follow you guys...

I'm a kid aged 19 (march it will be 20) but hey if there's nobody else who speaks the lighting language?

 

for example in my last year on my previous school I was the lighting man on School not a teacher... why not? nobody knew how to work with the stuff... with all kind of results... So when there was a performance which needed light they called me...

 

I have done 4-5 productions on my school cause nobody else knew how to do it. I worked on my own diplom ceremony, I have done the galabal for a big part, I made the X-mos party,.... I knew how and where the power was and how much you could use... So I understand why he as a pupil asks this thing!

 

 

My answer to you:

First look what you allready have... then look what would be usefull for any kind of production and then tell your teachers or the dealers what would be needed...

 

I would create a FOH rig for front light and some rig above the podium...

Also try to get al your data lines like DMX, sound can go to the FOH without somoene falling over cables...

 

I wish you good luck!

 

 

ps: sorry for my english it isn't that good cause I'm from Belguim ;)

[Ynot]

Why do we all ways knock kids on this forum. Provide some feedback as the member asked, but don't knock the kids.

<Groans>

I don't view this as 'Knocking kids'.

I see it as giving the proper advice to youthful inexperience (and I mean lack of proper experience based on actual learning from those who know what they do, rather than picking up bits & bobs in a couple of years at school because 'no-one else knows how to'.

 

I've said many times before, I'm happy that there's a lot more enthusiasm out there with the teens of this world, and encourage them to come work (as young volunteers) in our venue. But with the greatest of respect to them what may seem like an easy job in a school environment isn't always the same when presented with a LOT more gear, a LOT more power and a LOT more responsibility should things go wrong in any way! I like to think that those we've had through the theatre have improved their knowledge because of time spent here, and some go on to bigger & better things elsewhere.

 

On topic for this thread, though, it seems plain from the first line of the first post that unless the OP is 'in character' for a class project, the statement "At school we are currently working on plans for a new lighting system to be put out to tender" is quite specific. I'd like feedback from the OP to clarify but I read it as "We're doing it".

 

There has been some quite useful and qualified response from members here, much of it extremely valuable, but useful only to the hand that's actually writing the tender criteria. As has been said, there's NO way that any LEA will allow a student anywhere near the actual paperwork, nor will they realistically take the advice of a student when writing it - sorry guys, but that's just plain common sense. If, however, all this is so the student can feed back to a teacher who in turn speaks with the tender writer, then that MAY work, but if the teachers don't understand what they're repeating they'll be unlikely to understand any questions which WILL arise, and as a consequence the tender may end up being poorly written anyway!

 

My ten penn'orth

[Paul TC]

, but if the teachers don't understand what they're repeating they'll be unlikely to understand any questions which WILL arise, and as a consequence the tender may end up being poorly written anyway!

 

Reminds me of when I was at school many years ago. We were promised some more lights by the English teacher who "did" drama, i.e. the school play to supplement our 8 Patt 23 FOH lanterns on 4 circuits.

 

Got 8 Patt 23's, 2 Patt 23N's , 4 10 foot vertical scaff bars each side FOH equally spaced down the sides of the hall, with a double switched 13Amp outlet at the bottom of each, wired up as 4 20A radial circuits from a MCB fuse board installed by the Council Electricians who usually did council house repairs..

 

Only two of the bars each side were actually usable to light the stage, although the others did come in useful for concerts when the hall was "turned round"

 

Although the sixth form student "in charge" of the lighting, I was left completely out of the whole process.

 

 

Then had the job of finding some decent dimming for the circuits, ( 4 household 5A rotary dimmers) eventually installed by the original electricians and some means of actually hanging the stuff off the bars and connecting it to the supply.

 

Seem to have spent most of my professional life since taking other peoples ill-concived ideas and getting them to work.

[Ynot]

Reminds me of when I was at school many years ago. We were promised some more lights by the English teacher who "did" drama, i.e. the school play to supplement our 8 Patt 23 FOH lanterns on 4 circuits.

 

Got 8 Patt 23's, 2 Patt 23N's , 4 10 foot vertical scaff bars each side FOH equally spaced down the sides of the hall,

Depending on how long ago we're talking that was probably quite a good deal! ;)

with a double switched 13Amp outlet at the bottom of each, wired up as 4 20A radial circuits from a MCB fuse board installed by the Council Electricians who usually did council house repairs..

whilst this surprises me not a jot! general electrical installs in schools HAS to be done by one of their approved contractors, unless part of a specified project plan calls for an outside company - and even then they'd probably have to have a generic LEA license or some such.

Only two of the bars each side were actually usable to light the stage,

Which should have been plenty, shouldn't it, with only 10 extra lanterns to play with?

although the others did come in useful for concerts when the hall was "turned round"

Aaaah! Multi-purpose-ism rules!! :) :D :D

Although the sixth form student "in charge" of the lighting, I was left completely out of the whole process.

Another nil surprise, I'm afraid. Look at it from the school's POV (ie head and governors etc) - why should they ask a pupil opinions on something he'd not be using after a year or so?

[musht]

When I was at school, was a while back, before PCs, time of PETs and Apple IIs

People brought in to specify new computer for school were the collective brains of the school computer club, as between them they had more current knowledge of the market than any of the staff.

 

Perhaps we would all prefer that theatre installations are specfied by the appropriate professionals, architects.............:-/

[Paul TC]

Depending on how long ago we're talking that was probably quite a good deal! ;)

 

Oh it was and they were Mk 2's with shutters, and we had a pair of irises. The details were just to show how in this case nobody understood what was required and the usual dogs breakfast emerged.

 

As it was "electricity", stage lighting bod's were recruited from the Physics dept and given "free rein", (over 30 years ago before anyone worries, and the building is now demolished. Doubt anyone had ever heard the letters PAT then or had the idea you needed training to use a 'scope or erect scaffolding).

 

My "improvements" during my year tenure, were creating 2 proper on stage LX bars to mount lanterns amongst the three rows of Strand compartment battens, and introducing 3-core cable and connectors for wiring up the on-stage Patt 123's which previously had been wired up with the old twin single sheathed lighting flex, aka bell-wire,and connector blocks, and mounted in a recess over the proscenium arch FOH side of the main curtain so they covered very little of the stage. The work mainly I understood of a previous Physics Master.

[benweblight]

Ok, to clarify, when I say "we" I mean ofcourse, the school (which I am part of). Obviously, I am not going to be responsible for the install, however I am involved in the specification, as one of the more experienced students techs, and an end user. The final specification will be made with professional advice, im not stupid enough to think I will think of everything that someone with years experience can. Despite this, I am still interested in what is involved in the process.

 

Thanks for the advice, we do indeed have a regular supplier who we hire rigs from (we dont have the budget for our own), and if they didnt win, then it could make it awkward working with them in future.

[Richard Bunting]

Perhaps we would all prefer that theatre installations are specfied by the appropriate professionals, architects.............:-/

Long gone are the days when the school got a local electrical contractor to do this sort of thing. Nowadays, I would expect some form of professional outfit eg a consultant or a theatre lighting company to be involved, depending upon whether its a new install /refurbishment, or just an upgrade to existing facilities. By all means get the kids involved in suggesting what they would like to get, but the actual procurement process will be handled by the LEA or school bursar / facilities manager. The professional has the experience of necessary construction / installation legislation and techniques, which means that no one gets hurt during or after the installation.

 

On the matter of how this forum responds to questions from younger members of our industry, who maybe don't have the knowledge or experience yet, is to encourage them to think about what they want to say before they say it. We all started with nothing, and we mustn't stiffle an enquiring mind, but they will get a lot more respect from more experienced / older members if they realise that they will get a better response by thinking about the question.

 

Just my 2p worth.

 

Richard

[bruce]

we do indeed have a regular supplier who we hire rigs from (we dont have the budget for our own), and if they didnt win, then it could make it awkward working with them in future.

 

If that is the case, then they probably aren't the sort of people you want to be working with.

 

Suppliers are realistic - they know how the tendering process in schools and other organisations work. They expect to win some and lose some. If they lose, and the contract has been awarded fairly, then they have no cause for complaint.

 

Of course, the guys may grumble, and mutter about "those cowboy contractors that you got to do the last job" - but at the end of the day, business is business. They won't turn down your job just beause you went elsewhere in the past. Indeed, a tendering process, or going elsewhere for services, is a useful way to give your regular suppliers a kick up the backside, to make sure they dont become complacent.

 

If your "regular supplier" bears grudges, then ask yourself why you stick with them.