Mixing smoke fluid

[lightingyoung]

Hi all,

 

I haven't done it but can you mix smoke fluid together

 

Many thanks

[Ynot]

I haven't done it but can you mix smoke fluid together

Not really a good idea.

Smoke machine manufacturers create their fluids to suit the type of machine and the temperature they run at, amongst other things. This is why it's not really a good idea to use, say, chauvet fluid in a Martin machine. Whilst it MAY work to a point you'll get side issues like, for example, hot fluid that hasn't morphed into smoke spitting out of the nozzle.

 

If you mean 'Can I put a different fluid into a machine to what's already there, then the answer depends on the fluid - has it been approved for use in said machine? If yes, then it should be OK to just mix them but to be honest I'd be happier running what was left in the bottle out then purging the machine with DI water (which should be done regularly anyway) then starting the new fluid.

 

Hope this helps

 

Can you elaborate on why the question's been raised?

[lightingyoung]

I have a smoke machine which has a little bit of fluid left in it and I wounded if I could put more fluid in (different type) instead of running it dead. sorry if that doesn't make any sense.

[ChrisD]

As YNot said, yes you can, but it's better for the machine if you run the old fluid out (but not dry), then run thru a bottle of DI water, or manuafacturers cleaning fluid (you can get away with generic stuff). Then put the new fluid in. If your machine is a cheap maplins job or similar, it probably won't matter greatly which fluid you use.

 

HTH

 

Chris

[Ike]

I wouldn't even contemplate emptying it first. While many manufacturers warn of using only there secret formula as anything else will destroy you machine, kill your children and run off with your wife this simply isn't true. All fluid is simply a mixture of either triethylene glycol or glycerol (glycerine) and water. Both glycols are freely interchangeable, the only thing you should avoid is using a fluid that produces a much denser fog than the one originally specified for the machine as it may lead to a blocked heater and/or nozzle.

 

Possibly not a good idea to tell the manufacturer your using someone else's fluid if it's still under warranty but apart from that I'd go for it!

 

Edit: Forgot to say some glycol to water ratios may cause spitting in some machines but won't cause them any damage so just experiment to find what works best.

[Ynot]

I wouldn't even contemplate emptying it first. While many manufacturers warn of using only there secret formula as anything else will destroy you machine, kill your children and run off with your wife this simply isn't true. All fluid is simply a mixture of either triethylene glycol or glycerol (glycerine) and water.

Hmmmm...

You've obviously never seen a decent quality machine that's been FUBAR'd by using cheap & cheerful fog juice then?

Edit: Forgot to say some glycol to water ratios may cause spitting in some machines but won't cause them any damage so just experiment to find what works best.

And for me, this is one of the bigger reasons why NOT to use the non-recommended fluid! Spitting hot fluid is bad because (a) hot fluid & punters/talent don't mix and (b) slippy fluid on floor and punters/talent also don't mix!!

 

Please stop posting poor advice when more experienced heads have given good reasons to the contrary!

None of thsoe who've advocated sticking to the right manufacturer's fluid (AFAIK) works for said manufacturer, but speak of the topic from experience.

[Ike]

Right!

 

You've obviously never seen a decent quality machine that's been FUBAR'd by using cheap & cheerful fog juice then?

Actually I have unblocked a huge number of decent quality machines when people have been...

...using a fluid that produces a much denser fog than the one originally specified for the machine

Which I warned against!

 

...some glycol to water ratios may cause spitting in some machines but won't cause them any damage so just experiment to find what works best.

And for me, this is one of the bigger reasons why NOT to use the non-recommended fluid!

Which is why I drew the original posters attention to it and suggested they experimented. Common sense dictates they do it before they open and clean up the mess afterwards.

 

Please stop posting poor advice when more experienced heads have given good reasons to the contrary!

Excuse me but I don't see any evidence that anyone who has posted before me does have any more experience in this field. For example the comment:

Smoke machine manufacturers create their fluids to suit the type of machine and the temperature they run at

Is somewhat incorrect, while the glycol to water ratio of the fluid varies this is to do with the plumbing and desired output and has nothing to do with the temperature.

 

Added to that I haven't seen any good reasons to the contrary whatsoever. If you run it dry you will knacker the pump and/or heat exchanger and if you put deionised water through it it will spit more than if you simply topped it up with the new fluid, so you're still no better off and you've wasted time and fluid.

 

The insinuation that I have no (or little) experience is down right insulting. About seventy percent of my current work involves the provision of atmospheric effects for television, theme, music, clubs and theatres. I have designed and manufactured bespoke smoke machines for two of the UKs largest special effects companies. I am not just spouting off for the sake of it, I have used non manufacturer approved (sometimes homemade) smoke fluid on many many occasions in my own machines without problem.

 

None of thsoe who've advocated sticking to the right manufacturer's fluid (AFAIK) works for said manufacturer, but speak of the topic from experience.

The only person other than us who has tried to answer is a full time student who has not given a reason as to his opinion leading me to the conclusion that it's something he has heard in passing or, dare I say it, been told by a manufacturer? Either way it doesn't sound like first hand experience. Chris, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Your's on the other hand contained a mistake that was obvious to me yet not you, hinting I might possibly have a bit more experience than I got credit for. ;)

[Johnno]

One of many:

 

http://www.emanator.demon.co.uk/bigclive/smoke.htm

[mattwright15]

Please stop posting poor advice when more experienced heads have given good reasons to the contrary!

Excuse me but I don't see any evidence that anyone who has posted before me does have any more experience in this field. For example the comment:

Smoke machine manufacturers create their fluids to suit the type of machine and the temperature they run at

Is somewhat incorrect, while the glycol to water ratio of the fluid varies this is to do with the plumbing and desired output and has nothing to do with the temperature.

 

 

I'm sorry but I may be wrong....

 

My chemistry isn't the best by far- I have no degree. If you mix any compounds then you create a new mixture which will not have the same boiling temperature as the compound because every compound has its own boiling temperature and when mixed they react to heat differently.

For example H2o has a boiling temperature of 100*C.

So if you mix H2o and Glycol then you have created a new mixture. This mixtures boiling temperature will be different to that of pure Glycol and pure water as they two compounds will react differently as they are exposed to heat.

A more specific example is a Ice rink, I toured with a ice show which uses Glycol water mix as a cooling fluid in a radiator because glycol has a low freezing temperature, however when you mix it with water you decrease that freezing temperature. We always used a safety margin, but never went below a 50/50 mix because at -19*C the mixture will start to freeze.

 

So as a quick summary.

Unfortunately Ike you're wrong.

The Mixture ratio has everything to do with temperature as different machines will heat to different temperates at different pressures which have all been calculated by the boffin designers who know that at X*C a certain mixture will vaporise and turn to dense or thin smoke. They also know other mixtures will not vaporise at this machines temperature or pressure which will lead to clogging of the machine due to dried mixture residue.

 

Hope this hasn't required a too long winded explanation. But hey I could well be wrong?

 

Matt

[Ynot]

OK, Ike.

First things first.

Your profile says NOTHING about your experience or training with smoke machines, so in this topic we only have what you've posted to go on (and likewise you have what I've written - and I'll admit to not being an expert).

 

But taking what you posted, you first said

While many manufacturers warn of using only there secret formula as anything else will destroy you machine, ...... this simply isn't true.

to which I replied

You've obviously never seen a decent quality machine that's been FUBAR'd by using cheap & cheerful fog juice then?

followed by your response

Actually I have unblocked a huge number of decent quality machines when people have been...

...using a fluid that produces a much denser fog than the one originally specified for the machine

Which I warned against!

.

Now this sounds like a turn-around. One minute you're saying 'Go for it' and play with different fluids cos it doesn't matter, then you're saying you HAVE seen machines that have been knackered by using the wrong juice, then you come back again and try to say that it's ok anyway! That's at least two 180 degree turns as I read it!!

 

...some glycol to water ratios may cause spitting in some machines but won't cause them any damage so just experiment to find what works best.

And for me, this is one of the bigger reasons why NOT to use the non-recommended fluid!

Which is why I drew the original posters attention to it and suggested they experimented. Common sense dictates they do it before they open and clean up the mess afterwards.

And here again you're posting contrary advice - 'experimenting' to find which fluid works best sounds a little pointless to me - if you're going to buy several different fluids to see which works best with a machine, you might just as well get the RIGHT one to start with!!

 

Please stop posting poor advice when more experienced heads have given good reasons to the contrary!

Excuse me but I don't see any evidence that anyone who has posted before me does have any more experience in this field. For example the comment:

Smoke machine manufacturers create their fluids to suit the type of machine and the temperature they run at

Is somewhat incorrect, while the glycol to water ratio of the fluid varies this is to do with the plumbing and desired output and has nothing to do with the temperature.

Er, sorry, but NO! I can't claim (and don't) to have used a wide variety of machines, but have used several. And there are quality machines (fog and haze) which use different temperatures for different fluids to create different effects. Our Jem 24/7, for example, uses different heat settings to produce 2 or 3 fog or haze outputs. I'm sure that's going to be true of other machines as well, and logic tells me that different mixtures of fluid WILL react differently at different temperatures - hence WHY you'll get spitting in some cases, BECAUSE the heater element isn't converting all of the liquid to gas. That isn't the only cause of spitting, but certainly one of them.

Added to that I haven't seen any good reasons to the contrary whatsoever. If you run it dry you will knacker the pump and/or heat exchanger and if you put deionised water through it it will spit more than if you simply topped it up with the new fluid, so you're still no better off and you've wasted time and fluid.

Agree about not running it dry, but pushing some DI water thru a machine on a regular basis is a common practice, and one that helps to stop the nozzles etc from clogging.

The insinuation that I have no (or little) experience is down right insulting.

Well, if you feel insulted, then I will offer an apology, BUT you have to take into account the way the thread has gone, and your apparent changes of tack as above.

I am not just spouting off for the sake of it, I have used non manufacturer approved (sometimes homemade) smoke fluid on many many occasions in my own machines without problem.

And if it's worked for you, then fine, but I (and others) would still recommend that on a public forum the best advice is to go with the manufacturers' fluids, for just the reasons we've given.

[Ike]

Matt, you are of course correct in saying that ideally different ratios will each have there individual settings however this simply isn't practical. Manufacturers change their fluids all the time and ensuring the correct temperature is always set would be nigh on impossible. Ensuring the fluid was always heated to this temperature would also add a lot of cost to the machines. The vast majority of smoke machines heat the heater block to a fixed temperature that's hot enough to turn the majority of fluids into smoke at the specified flow rate and pressure yet not hot enough to cause breakdown of the glycol into nasty hydrocarbons. Machines with variable outputs and in particular combined hazer smoke machines sometimes alter this temperature to maintain a correct fluid temperature. I stand by my original comment, fluid is not designed for a specific temperature/machine.

 

...there are quality machines (fog and haze) which use different temperatures for different fluids to create different effects. Our Jem 24/7, for example, uses different heat settings to produce 2 or 3 fog or haze outputs.

I am fully aware of Martins experiments with variable temperature, the low setting for haze was due to the fact the pump runs slower (well pulses actually) therefore the fluid is in the heat exchanger longer and needs a smaller temperature gradient to bring it up to the same temperature. The medium and high settings were an attempt to better suit the fluid ratios...that failed. In fact it failed so badly that as of version 2v2 of the software, changing the temperature on the display does absolutely nothing!* This isn't meant as a dig at Martin, there were simply too many variables.

 

Your profile says NOTHING about your experience or training with smoke machines, so in this topic we only have what you've posted to go on (and likewise you have what I've written - and I'll admit to not being an expert).

Agreed. I do agree I went off on one and with a bit more time to think about it I might not have taken it to heart so much.

 

...Now this sounds like a turn-around....

I feel it was a condition not a turnaround and one that was mentioned in my original post at that. I don't believe the original question can simply be given a yes or no answer.

 

And here again you're posting contrary advice - 'experimenting' to find which fluid works best sounds a little pointless to me - if you're going to buy several different fluids to see which works best with a machine, you might just as well get the RIGHT one to start with!!

This was defiantly a case of bad communication on my part, I meant to suggest that if the fluid he had did spit he should try something else. If you did follow my condition above then spitting is very unlikely anyway.

 

pushing some DI water thru a machine on a regular basis is a common practise, and one that helps to stop the nozzles etc from clogging.

Agreed, however in answer to the question is it necessary? IMHO probably not.

 

if it's worked for you, then fine, but I (and others) would still recommend that on a public forum the best advice is to go with the manufacturers' fluids, for just the reasons we've given.

To be honest I feel it would be hypocritical of me to post on here saying stick to the manufacturers fluid and feel that it could get a bit dull if people stopped posting anything but the status quo.

 

 

*I have no connection with martin and posted this information believing it to be in the public domain.

[one man bucket]

Hi

 

Having read through this page, I've not spotted a mention of COSH sheets. A sheet generally relates to one fluid. So a mix of fluids would not be covered by either sheet. This is the position I suspect health and safety people would take, Or a lawyer acting on a behalf of a artist, crew member or punter who pointed the finger at the smoke/haze as the cause of any ill Health they suffered following exposure. The cosh sheet gives techs a degree of protection in that the safety or risk has been clearly laid out by the manufacturer. In the event of any trouble where fluids where mixed I feel that the manufacturer would claim you had used the product in an inappropriate way, outside the scope of there safety tests and that the responsibility was yours. While I don't want to stop people from experimenting, after all thats how new ideas and effects get created. I feel the above is worth keeping in mind.

 

 

ook!

[paulears]

Welcome Mr Bucket!

 

You know, the CoSHH paperwork never even occured to me - you're dead right. A mix of chemicals when the exact contents aren't detailed would make record keeping impossible. If a manufacturer 'tweaks' the fluid to suit a certain machine requirements, then nobody could be certain that the 'new' mix was safe, and it would become an unknown solution that CoSHH compliance would be very difficult indeed.

 

Thanks for spotting that one!

Paul

[sparkyweb]

Throwing something else into the pot here.

Le Maitre offer their global fluid as a fluid that is able to work in the majority of quality machines.

 

I quote from their website:

 

"Global fluid is designed with most quality smoke machines in mind, and echoes the formula of many manufacturers.

 

It gives a thick, white, practically odourless fog with a medium to long hang time. This type of fluid has a medium to high ash content."

 

So if a major manufacturer offers this claim, we must assume its ok to use in other machines (warranty issues aside), or not????

 

Sparky

[one man bucket]

I work in sales and sell the Le Maitre fluid as well as Rosco, Jem etc (there are way too many these days). When I get requests for smoke fluid for odd, no name brand machines or for example the £20+ units that Woolworths sold one Halloween inc fluid. I sell the standard Le Maitre fluid with the advice to try a small amount first. If the machine starts to cough and splutter, switch it off, remove fluid and clean it out and try something else. But don't hold me responsible for your dead machine. Where the machine is a branded Product, Le Maitre, Rosco, Jem/Martin, etc, etc (OTHER BRANDS ARE AVAILABLE ) I follow the line of makers fluid only to be used. This is for the simple reason that if I did not and advised a customer to use a fluid form manufacturer A with a machine from manufacturer B and it died. The customer will point the finger at me and then demand a new machine or free repair. Hence sales staff at all the major theatrical suppliers take this approach. So the result is we stock of a variety of fluids from a variety of manufacturer's, mostly in 5 ltr plastic bottles, containing mostly water, which are chemically more or less the same.

 

Which are

Mostly Harmless

 

OOk!!