New PA System for new theatre

[meyerm3d]

Hi

 

Were in the process of upgrading our current theatre in the college that I work at. The aim is to convert an old swimming pool into a new flexible large space for productions.

The swimming pools dimentions are roughly 40m length by 20m Width and a height of 15m.

Hopefully we should be getting a grant of around 4.5m to fund the project with around 1.5m spent on technical work including Rigging, LX, Sound, AV, Seating e.t.c

 

At the moment I'm drwaing up a plan based on £150000 allocated to Sound and I'm in need of some inspiration for what type of speaker system I should be looking at.

 

At the moment we use a Mackie system comprised of 4 Mackie C300z all with flying frames, 6 mackie SRM450 actives and 2 swa1501 Subs.

I absoluttely hate the sound of the whole system and want to look at purchasing something with power, quality and robustness for a flexible performance space.

 

The space will be used as end on, in the round, traverse and thrust so I need a system that is easy to rig and adaptable. I'm budgeting a max of £45000 for the speakers, Amps, and speaker rigging alone, this should include at least 5 x foldback speakers for stage and band.

 

At present I have been looking at Meyer UPA, D&B C7 tops, B2 Subs and E3 fills, EAW, and various small line arrays but not quite sure what would suit the theatre.

 

one more thing our Artistic Director is extremely fussy over sound, being a proffesional guitarist he is looking for a powerful quality system that can completely fill the space with no dead spots and something that has clarity and crispness.

 

Hope this helps and I would appreciate any sujestions.

 

Also does anyone have a clue on the retail prices of brand new D&B Speakers, I cant find any information on prices anywhere on the web only hire prices

[Bobbsy]

Well, by your mention of Meyer and D&B you've already included two of the most commonly used theatre speaker systems.

 

Frankly for the system size and budget you're talking about, the distributors will practically bite your hand off for a chance to quote. Rather than get try to work out a shopping list for yourself, I'd get straight on the phone and arrange a site visit from each of them. At this visit you can explain your plans and get THEM working on the computer modelling to give you a system with the flexibility you need (and an accurate quote of course). You'll find that they're quite used to working this way.

 

On a completely different tack, one item that was conspicuously absent from your list of works was acoustic treatment. I hope/assume this was just in the interest of brevity, but considering the normal acoustics of a swimming pool, I think this will be a major issue for you and one that should be included in the planning and design from square one. This will likely make as big a difference to the eventual sound of your theatre as your choice of sound system. A search in the BR for "acoustic consultants" or similar should find you some companies to talk to.

 

Bob

[Matt Riley]

I don't often recommend this, but it may be a really beneficial idea to get a truly independent system consultant as well as a good acoustic consultant on board now, with the express authority of those managing the project to work with the architect so that you don't get a space which looks pretty but sounds awful.

 

The addition of a system consultant will mean that you are able to get the system that you really want, will take away lots of the stress of a big install, and will probably save you money in the end, as you can keep a tighter rein on the sound contractor who will likely install the system. Just remember that there are genuine consultants, and then there are those who will label themselves consultants. You can generally tell the former as they are brand independant and have probably done some serious installations in their time, which they'll happily invite you to come and listen to.

 

WRT the D&B, I'd go for Q7 instead of C7 as it sounds almost identical, goes just as loud, has the same dispersion, and is about half the size! Also, they are easier and more flexible to rig on your own. Perhaps an LCR config would work well using 2 for the centre cluster and then one each side, which could be reconfigured for "in the round" as needed.

 

When buying mons, what do you want them to do? E3s work as great, reasonably loud vocal monitors and are tiny, for concealing as part of the set. Max15s are reasonably priced, loud and good for rock bands, we've just bought a turbosound tms420 based rig, which are really loud, small, low profile 12" wedges which I'm rather happy with for our needs.

 

HTH,

 

Matt

[nb705]

The trouble with the E3s is that they have a very toppy response. Excellent for Vox, but when you need anything else they are pretty useless. These days most 12" monitors have a good bass response (still not quite as good as the 15" or the massive dual 12/15" beasts but close enough). I can specifically recommend the Martin LE1200, if you have need of general monitoring (I'm not a Martin rep, they just sound damn good) in a rock setting. The Turbo TFM-12Ms which Matt is referring to do go very loud, but they may not be loud enough for a large stage. If the space will also be theatrical in nature, then hae you considered the use of delays? They can work quite nicely if installed and setup properly.

[TallMike]

Hi - I think you should also consider the EM Acoustics range of loudspeakers.

 

I may be able to help, PM me

[nag1_uk]

Have a look at opus audio.

http://www.opusaudio.com/

 

expensive but well worth it!

 

Mike

[Bobbsy]

Just to add a "me too", Opus Audio is the only manufacturer that, to my ears at least, rivals or surpasses D&B for theatre use. Alas, (or maybe a good thing) I've only had a chance to listen to their systems, never use them myself....yet!

 

Bob

[bruce]

Some of the last few posts are lacking something.

 

They're saying "have a look at XXX". But they don't say why. Is it because the poster thinks they're ideally suited for the job, due to their power/range/dispersion/whatever? Is it because the poster saw them in a magazine and liked the colour?Is it because the poster has done a similar install, and found these boxes perfect? Is it because the poster sells them? Is it because these units are very cost effective?

 

Remember, the most useful answers are not simply "you should look at XXX", they are "you should look at XXX because..."

 

[/rant]

[andy_s]

WRT the D&B, I'd go for Q7 instead of C7 as it sounds almost identical, goes just as loud, has the same dispersion, and is about half the size! Also, they are easier and more flexible to rig on your own.

Matt

 

 

???

I've heard C7 stacks demonstrated alongside Q systems (Qsub, Q1, Q7) at a session set up by the nice people from D&B, and think they sound nothing like each other. They do both go very loud though, I'd agree with that.

 

regarding other options, I've heard Opus and was impressed by the transparency and clarity, not sure about the rock and roll credentials, but great for theatre if they are in reach of your budget. I had a demo from the sound designer on Jerry Springer the Opera, comparing it with the system he'd specced for that show.

 

Another system worth considering is the Alcons Audio small line array. Another very precise, very transparent system which produces lots of level for the size of box. They use relatively unusual ribbon driver technology, which has previously had the reputation of being a bit fragile, but the people at Alcons say their kit is very robust, and their stuff is being used for some pretty large gigs. It certainly sounded nice in our theatre when they demo'd them here.

 

Our own rig is half a dozen d&b CI 90 s doing stalls, circle and centre, with Q subs, which is more than adequate for our size venue - 330 seat theatre on 2 levels. If I'd had more money available, I'd maybe have gone for D12 amps istead of Epac3, for the extra power available, but the flexibility of monoblock amplifiers is quite nice.

[Simon Lewis]

Some of the last few posts are lacking something.

 

Bruce,

 

Yours is not a rant, but a timely expression of cold fact.

 

I know that kit gets bought on recommendations/looks/sex appeal/cost/so and so uses it/"I heard one box and it filled the whole of the NEC" testimonials etc., but surely the system needs to work within the venue - whatever size or shape it ends up being?!

 

Given the vague "40m length by 20m Width and a height of 15m" I would defer any decision on make and model and concentrate on a specification that provides coherent, guaranteed intelligibility with minimal frequency or amplitude variation from seat to seat.

 

The better manufacturers can do this, as can most electrocacoustic consultants. The latter have the benefit of potentially being able to stand up to the Architect's greater excesses....

 

Simon

[paulears]

In this case we appear to have a college with a decent budget who want a suitable system for their needs, which although are broadly understood, don't yet appear to have any solid data to draw on. A huge amount will depend on the conversion. The acoustics will be the deciding factor, and any attempt to guess them before it's finished is pretty speculative. So I can't quite see the point in all these recommendations - after all, the sensible thing is to contact the suppliers when the building is finished and get them to bring some kit in for a shoot out. With this kind of budget, this is the only sensible method of selecting a system. Get some boxes in and hear what they sound like in the real venue.

 

If you don't do this, then you could effectively waste the money - and this would be a shame, and no doubt not looked on with approval from the powers that be if they find out. Might scupper the next application for dosh.

 

If keeping Mr McGovern happy is required, then I'd certainly get demos- not worth taking the risk. After all, if he is looking for a system that will produce the specific type of sound he wants, and he signs the cheque, then he needs to approve the system you buy - and then if it doesn't perform, the blame will have been neatly buckpassed!

[Simon Lewis]

The acoustics will be the deciding factor, and any attempt to guess them before it's finished is pretty speculative.

 

The only modification I'd suggest to Paul's post (after all I can't disagree with a Guru!) is that the venue acoustics should be designed first, and should be designed with amplified sound in mind. The downside of leaving the loudspeakers until last is that fly points, sight lines, and even basic room shape have all been completed and are now unchangeable.

 

Faced with the usual architect's triumph of nowhere to fly, and with a too reverberant room with flutter echo and a curved back wall, I think I'd want to know the room was right first ;-)

 

Simon

[i_hate_fisicks]

Have a look at opus audio.

 

expensive ...

 

I don't agree, all the quotes for systems that I've had from them have been very reasonable. Their larger boxes are also excellent concert loudspeakers.

[Bobbsy]

I don't agree, all the quotes for systems that I've had from them have been very reasonable. Their larger boxes are also excellent concert loudspeakers.

 

Their prices are competitive against their competition...it's just that the competition are the likes of D&B and Meyer, not Behringer and Peavey!

 

Let me third the motion (and repeat myself from post 2 in this thread) that proper design time and effort will need to go into the acoustics for this venue before the project gets to the stage of installing (or even auditioning) any speakers.

 

As for suggestions of manufacturers, my personal view is that these are valid (assuming they can be backed up with reasons and experience) since there are certain brands that tend to be most suitable for a theatre install. Most of these have been mentioned already. However, where I think things break down is debate about specific cabinets and so forth. Until there's a finished theatre (and a lot more detailed specification) this level of debate is a bit pointless. In any case, this is the sort of thing that a GOOD manufacturer can advise on.

 

Bob

[mikewheeler]

If I were you, as suggested above, I would get a consultant or a dedicated theatre installer in to have a look for you, as they can then generate a spec in line with what you need.

 

Id talk to people like Theatre Projects, Charcoal Blue, LSI Projects, Stage Electrics or Autograph, as they can all recommend solutions from various different manufacturers. And then, get demos arranged (preferably A/B demos so you can compare products directly rather than relying on memory) initially in any listening space, but when the building is in a fit state get the kit into the venue, as close to the final set up as possible so you can hear what it will actually sound like. Any distributor keen to sell a system of this size should expect that.

 

And before anyone points it out and accuses me of trying to sell our own kit, Autograph are our UK distributor.

 

Cheers,

 

Mike