Orchestral Mixdown

[Simon MFR]

I spent a day recording with a wind orchestra, and I’m back in the studio, mixing some of the numbers down. The room in which the recording took place was quite live, however once the sixty-odd musicians arrived, it was very dead indeed, therefore I had to add some synthetic delay to the mics. (I don’t use reverb as I find it saturates the mix if over-used) I’ve added -4 db’s of delay and even though it sounds lovely, I was wandering if there are ‘text book standards’ that exist regarding post production on this scale… :(

[Dj Dunc]

Hmm. I did a 40 piece wind band recording in an acoustically treated room (village hall) and added my own reverb, and it has come out lovely. pm me if you want one of the tracks so I would be interested in the answer to this one too

 

dunc

[paulears]

well I don't think I have ever done this using delay. how did you record it - in terms of technique - I'm guessing x/y, m/s, a/b or even decca trees or something else a bit cleverer - or did you multi-track the sections. In all the orchestral stuff I've done over the years, I have never used delay at all - in fact, the main reason for not doing so is to preserve the time alignment. I usually record stereo using a highish x/y pair to a couple of tracks and depending on the room, a wider spaced pair to add extra width if needed. The only otgher tracks are maybe a few specials for certain instruments, but it depends on the piece, and orchestration. If the room is deader tha I'd like, then reverb from a yamaha dsp is my favourite way of livening it up a tad. If you have multi-tracked it then I guess you are going to have to work hard to recreate a live sound, and delaying the desks as they move away from the conductors position is a technical possibility, but difficult to do. An analyser would be really helpful to prevent all sorts of problems. Often, by delaying things you'll get nasty comb filtering when combining microphones.

 

My own feelings are that direct to stereo with a few spot mics is by far the most natural method of recording an orchestra. The sound that close miking seems to produce, to my ears is not nice - but very 'clinical'

[Dj Dunc]

I used four mics (two front two back) which worked well. I was mixing slightly behind and to the side of the conductor. It sounds like a concert hall, rather than a little village hall, and I was amazed at how it sounded, but the reverb came from onboard a yamaha emx5000 with the effects on 50%. if you want a listen, just holler

[lightsource]

don’t use reverb as I find it saturates the mix if over-used

 

Can be true, however, reverb is a personal experience, that's why some prople prefer Lexicon, while others prefer TC,

maybe you just haven't found one that suits your taste.

 

My own Alesis MidiverbII, (over 10 years old) gets more use than my new shiney Lexicon MPX :(

[Simon MFR]

well I don't think I have ever done this using delay. how did you record it - in terms of technique - I'm guessing x/y, m/s, a/b or even decca trees or something else a bit cleverer - or did you multi-track the sections. In all the orchestral stuff I've done over the years, I have never used delay at all - in fact, the main reason for not doing so is to preserve the time alignment. I usually record stereo using a highish x/y pair to a couple of tracks and depending on the room, a wider spaced pair to add extra width if needed. The only otgher tracks are maybe a few specials for certain instruments, but it depends on the piece, and orchestration. If the room is deader tha I'd like, then reverb from a yamaha dsp is my favourite way of livening it up a tad. If you have multi-tracked it then I guess you are going to have to work hard to recreate a live sound, and delaying the desks as they move away from the conductors position is a technical possibility, but difficult to do. An analyser would be really helpful to prevent all sorts of problems. Often, by delaying things you'll get nasty comb filtering when combining microphones.

 

My own feelings are that direct to stereo with a few spot mics is by far the most natural method of recording an orchestra. The sound that close miking seems to produce, to my ears is not nice - but very 'clinical'

 

I recorded using an x-y pair (small diaphragm) and blumlien pair (wide diaphragm) both set up within about 2 inches of each other (so I could a-b the signals; ended up using the blumlien pair) which were placed directly above the conductors head, and two spot-placed 57’s for the timpani/percussion transients. I didn’t use these as much as I thought I would in the final mix either. The six mic’s were fed via a *very* long multi-core to a room far from the orchestra, so I could monitor the signals accurately. My recording medium was a Roland 2400.

 

The delay time and dry/wet balance of the fx are set quite low, but the feedback is set to 41%.

The natural sound of the stereo image is perfect, just the right balance between l-r. And I’m really glad I added the percussion transient mics, but these ones have been left totally dry…I’m not a great fan of synthetic effects, least of all reverbs, but a delay used frugally works very well indeed…

[paulears]

if you are using a delay with feedback, then you've kind of created reverbm but without early reflections - just a thickener really. I guess if it works, and sounds good, that is all that matters.

 

with regards to your blumlein pair, what mics do you use?

[Simon MFR]

if you are using a delay with feedback, then you've kind of created reverbm but without early reflections - just a thickener really. I guess if it works, and sounds good, that is all that matters.

 

with regards to your blumlein pair, what mics do you use?

 

Samson CO1's...I was offered one 414 (I would have loved a pair, but alas) and I didnt want to use the c3000's. I have a wonderful pair of Calrec CM652d's but (again alas) not a wide diaphragm. Im very surprised at the tone, depth and warmth that the CO1's offer, and they required very little work to get the right sound.

 

Im listening to some Wagner & Elgar now actually, to compare and contrast my recording against another (albeit BBC 'redbook' standard) and to be honest, theres little in it. As Joe Meek once said, "if it sounds good, it is good" :(

[lightsource]

Second that... Any recording is trully a personal experience, and if you feel you've lived up to a master of audio then surely it must sound good :(

[p.k.roberts]

with regards to your blumlein pair, what mics do you use?

Samson CO1's...

A Blumlein Pair is a pair of crossed figure-of eights; Samson CO1s are fixed pattern cardioids. Am I missing something?

[paulears]

This confusion is my fault really - I like looking at recording set-ups and in the middle of this thread I PM'd Simon for some extra info - one of my questions was which make he was using for the x/y - I had a horrible suspicion he was using C1000's, one of my most hated so called 'all-rounders' and the pm got posted back to the thread with the Samson explanation - which was mainly due to the comment about usb version vs non-usb, as in the pair I have that I quite like.

 

So the Blumlein comment about fig-8 got kind of attached to the wrong bit. Blame me!I should have kept the entire thing within the forum and I just wanted some more info for myself.

 

Incidentally, the Bue LED has to be the most annoying AND useful thing on a mic. No chance of forgetting which side to sing into, but it is rather bright - a shame the phantom ramps up and down, operation wise, or you could even use it as a cue light - not sure if the usb version has a light.

 

I hope this puts things straight - I was going to put this right this morning myslef, but p.k.roberts was a bit quick for me!

paul

[Alec]

I've done a number of brass band recordings.

 

I always go with a central XY pair of Rode NT1s. Depending on venue and requirements I may add another mic for percussion and one more for solo instruments. I record to my Roland VS1680 and master with the large hall preset. Results are great.

 

Most of the non-live recording takes place in a dead-as-a-dodo room. It'e really bizarre to A-B the before/after reverb audio - very strange hearing a dry brass band.

 

I'd never use delay, reverb is the de-jour for this kind of music. I always think there's too much reverb on commercial recordings - like I do for piano. Always a slight battle with the conductor who wants more and me wanting less. But we end up with a great central ground.