lifeisacabaret Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 Situation: A Musical...."Bat Boy", with a cast of 10 and Band of 5 (all DI'd..2 keys, guitar, bass, electric drum kit)Venue: 165 seat reconfigurable studio space...sort of like the Watermill in Newbury or the Arc in Trowbridge- one main level of raked seating, with 4 seating areas to the sides (1 upper each side, 1 lower each side). Equipment already obtained: Digidesign Venue Profile, 14 radios with DPA 4066's. PA: Thats the question! Would you go for some kind of groundstacked mini-line array (the rake is quite steep and hanging points are problematic)...or would you go for a point-source solution? Bear in mind the show is quite a 'rocky' show and demands alot of power and 'punchiness'. Any help on this theoretical question greatly appreciated! (oops..should clarify- not necessarily help, ideas to contribute to the idea stew!) Cheers guys! JG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave singleton Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 Is it me or is 14 radios in an 165 seater venue every so slightly OTT? Surely unless im very much mistaken you will find it very difficult to get decent gain before feedback. Wouldnt some floats be more benefical to get voices raised over the band and possibly one or 2 mics for principles? Line array of any form isnt going to help you greater here. Without seeing the venue its difficult to coment but possible some d&b E9's would suit the bill. This is purely guessing and is very hard to say without seeing the venue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lifeisacabaret Posted October 21, 2006 Author Share Posted October 21, 2006 Its a very rocky show, and I would want everyone to be heard in the same way, hence the radios for every member of the cast (plus backups for the 4 principals). Floats would (I think) not work- maybe if it was West Side Story, and the band were in the pit (there is no pit, and the band would be located in the scene dock), floats would work, but as it is, they would not be, and I would want all the voices to be consistent, so I would mic every cast member. Edit: Also, the radios would be 4066 headsets, so GBF will be much easier to attain, than with an MKE or 4061 lavalier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lightsource Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 Is it me or is 14 radios in an 165 seater venue every so slightly OTT? Surely unless im very much mistaken you will find it very difficult to get decent gain before feedback. We can use that amount for a live band, 6x drum, 3 instrument, and 3 vocal mic's, feedback shouldn't be too much of a problem with a good sound engineer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lifeisacabaret Posted October 21, 2006 Author Share Posted October 21, 2006 Is it me or is 14 radios in an 165 seater venue every so slightly OTT? Surely unless im very much mistaken you will find it very difficult to get decent gain before feedback. We can use that amount for a live band, 6x drum, 3 instrument, and 3 vocal mic's, feedback shouldn't be too much of a problem with a good sound engineer. Indeed- the 4066's are notoriously excellent in shows with a louder than average stage volume, regardless of the size of venue or stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbsy Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 Any help on this theoretical question greatly appreciated! Just for clarity, is this a theoretical project for a paper or are you actually doing the show? Theoretical projects can sometimes be more fun because you can also have a theoretical budget! I don't know about the others, but I'm having a bit of trouble visualising your space (having not been to either of the examples you give). Any chance you could post a rough floor plan and/or elevation? In any case, if flying isn't a possibility, you'll likely have to go with some kind of groundstacks, but I'd be worried about the visual intrusion depending on the space. I might be thinking in terms of something like the d&b audiotechnik Q series or the L-acoustics Kudos, but can only guess without more info. On suggestion might be to download one of the modelling programmes on the d&b site and see what sort of coverage you can get. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lifeisacabaret Posted October 21, 2006 Author Share Posted October 21, 2006 Any help on this theoretical question greatly appreciated! Just for clarity, is this a theoretical project for a paper or are you actually doing the show? Theoretical projects can sometimes be more fun because you can also have a theoretical budget! I don't know about the others, but I'm having a bit of trouble visualising your space (having not been to either of the examples you give). Any chance you could post a rough floor plan and/or elevation? In any case, if flying isn't a possibility, you'll likely have to go with some kind of groundstacks, but I'd be worried about the visual intrusion depending on the space. I might be thinking in terms of something like the d&b audiotechnik Q series or the L-acoustics Kudos, but can only guess without more info. On suggestion might be to download one of the modelling programmes on the d&b site and see what sort of coverage you can get. Bob Its a theoretical project. The visual intrustion on the stage is something that wouldnt be a problem- especially as the 4066's would be pretty obvious in such a small venue...so I wouldnt need to 'pretend' that the show was not amplified. D&B Q would be my favourite choice, but Nexo Geo S could work well as well...with the Q, im thinking 4 Q1's on top of a Q-Sub each side, with 4 E3's as fronts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulears Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 I can't see the point of a line array in such a small venue - seems little point in trying to use one in a venue with small dimensions. For 160 odd seats how does the show pay for itself? You seem to have an unlimited audio budget that would seem to cost more than your total box office? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lifeisacabaret Posted October 21, 2006 Author Share Posted October 21, 2006 Theoretical Project (as the post says). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gareth Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 But even a theoretical project should have some roots in reality - otherwise, if it's totally divorced from the constraints and restrictions that would normally apply to such a production (i.e. a budget that's commensurate with a production in a 160-seat theatre) what is there to learn from it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulears Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 .... and if you have specified the wrong kit for the venue, I'd expect the person reading your analysis to ask why you chose the wrong items. I agree with Gareth - we could all spec the most amazing kit to use in a totally inappropiate way. What is the wording of your brief - THEN we might be able to help? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob.d Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 But even a theoretical project should have some roots in reality - otherwise, if it's totally divorced from the constraints and restrictions that would normally apply to such a production (i.e. a budget that's commensurate with a production in a 160-seat theatre) what is there to learn from it? Indeed. At the present moment in time, I'm recommending a 48 channel frame Midas XL3 driving a very tall stack of I-Tech's, into 16 cells a side of Vertec. 165 seats would probably become about 4 extremely loud ones. And you'd be deeply in debt. On a more serious note, get a Turbo TQ415DP each side, stick em to a wall rather than fly them, and chuck in a sub for tub thumping impact. Very direct sounding boxes, with a horn loaded 6" mid driver which will reproduce speech very nicely and give it a nice throw too. Theyre self powered too, and therefore difficult to over drive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Hinds Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 Further to everything others have said, I would not use a line array in such a space, it's too small. Perhaps if you wanted to get to very extreme levels then a stack of C7 per side or as Dave suggested a selection of E9s with some subs hidden. A few months ago we did "A Chorus Line" with all the cast mic'd and it was honestly horrendous. The trouble with it is you just can't localise in on who is singing at any one time because all the sound was amplified. As you have total control of the band being all electronic I would go with some float mics and Crown PCC160s on the floor. Radio mics work but only if you can localise on who is singing at any one time. It would be better with a centre speaker for vocals rather than L+R. However as only you will be adding sound into that space with the system apart from vocals that would be better. Have plenty of bottom end in the mix, but don't try to kill with level. Any half decent performer should be able to sing out a 160 pax venue without assistance. Just my take. If the project is to do a good show skip all the radios, get an A&H Mix Wiz for the band, run the subs off an aux and use an E9 L + R. If the aim is a technological whizz bang scheme then keep going with the D-Show, DPAs, Have some L'Acoustics ARCS for the hell of it and then issue earplugs to anyone entering to actually see the show. Regards Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seano Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 The visual intrustion on the stage is something that wouldnt be a problem- especially as the 4066's would be pretty obvious in such a small venue...so I wouldnt need to 'pretend' that the show was not amplified.Unless you intrude into audience sight lines, in which case it most definitely *would* be a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lifeisacabaret Posted October 21, 2006 Author Share Posted October 21, 2006 Trying to sing acoustically with a rock band that naturally produces no acoustic sound and therefore needs to be amplified...how on earth would that work?! No singer is loud enough to project over a live rock band regardless of the size of the venue. With regards to imaging, it wouldnt matter all that much in a venue of the size, and anyway, with careful preprogramming and a cast that is well-blocked, the panning of the applicable vocal channels can be changed on a scene by scene basis, applicable to where on stage they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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