your advice needed please

[duntokin]

Hi

this post is in the video section as well but I thought I'd better post here as well ( if allowed) regarding the sound equipment part - after the video stuff

 

thanks

 

 

 

Hi all

Your advice / suggestions are desperately needed regarding the following.

I should say straight away that I have no knowledge of video projection other than that I have gleaned from browsing these pages

 

The Community Centre wher I work voluntarily ( I look after stage lighting etc) has gained 20K of funding to purchase video projection equipment for the Film Club they have just started.

 

The Hall seats 200 max.and is about 25metres long, 13 metres wide and has a traditional proscenium stage.

 

The guy who runs the film club has been quoted for the following kit.

 

Having browsed about looking at the individual items I ( given my lack of knowledge) have serious doubts about it (and the prices being quoted ) but I stand to be corrected by people with more knowledge and experience !

 

[Video stuff snipped by Bryson]

 

Audio System - this should be able to be used for other applications as well

 

 

 

Fohn XT1 mid/top unit x 2

Fohn XS520 sub bass inc amp xover

Yamaha MG10 mixer

 

plus assorted stands and cables

 

audio quote £2700

 

plus there is money in the budget allocated for blackout curtains etc.

 

Am I right to be concerned ? or am I being paranoid !

 

looking forward to any replies

[MarkPAman]

Do you have any other info about the speakers as :huh: does not find them.

 

It did find that projector for much less money though.

[duntokin]

Do you have any other info about the speakers as :huh: does not find them.

 

It did find that projector for much less money though.

 

 

fohn speakers are here http://www.fohhn.com/php/?pid=678

 

Edit: Link made clickable

[MarkPAman]

Ah there are two "h"s in it. Thanks

Edit:

Well it seems to be a lot of money for a smallish system, so I would hope that they sound great. But as I have not heard them I can not say whether the price is good or not. Can you get to hear them before you buy?

[Bobbsy]

Do you have any other info about the speakers as :huh: does not find them.

 

Probably because it's spelled Fohhn. Have a look HERE.

 

I've heard some Fohhn stuff before and it seemed pretty good. However, my instinct is that this model may be a bit small for the application.

 

Bob

 

Edit: Oops, the old crossed posting trick.

[StevieR]

Fohn XT1 mid/top unit x 2

Fohn XS520 sub bass inc amp xover

Yamaha MG10 mixer

 

The Fohhn system is very good in terms of quality but the spec given is definately too small for the room dimensions.

 

Luckily, we are a Fohhn dealer so feel free to PM me for more info/advice on this one.

 

Steve

[greenalien]

Given that surround sound is a major part of the cinematic experience, I think you should give serious thought to installing a surround sound system for your film club, especially as most DVD's have a Dolby Digital 5.1 soundtrack; they will often have a DTS soundtrack as well, which is arguably better quality than Dolby Digital - in either case, you should be looking at an external surround decoder, fed with a digital (preferably optical) signal from the DVD deck.

A top-spec home cinema decoder/amplifier would be suitable, as long as the power output was adequate - have a look at the Yamaha DSPZ9 as an example. - and if the tech specs seem a little daunting, this is pretty much the current state of the art for cinema audio. You'd also need 7 good quality speakers and an active subwoofer - for this sized hall, the sub would need to be at least 500 Watts, 1kW would be better. All this would cost a lot more than you have quoted but if you have a 20k budget, spending 7 - 8k on the audio seems about right to me...

If you have a modern multiplex cinema near you, might be worth asking the manager if he can show you the system they use; the screening rooms in some multiplexes are of a similar size to your hall.

[Bobbsy]

I very seriously doubt that any home cinema equipment (designed for a standard size domestic room) would come close to cutting it in a 200-seater auditorium. Don't forget that the inverse square law comes into play in a big way as you increase the size of the viewing/listening area. Also, home cinema setups are designed for a relatively small "sweet spot" within the room; in your club you'd need to provide an adequate experience in every corner.

 

By all means consider a PROFESSIONAL surround system if you have the budget, but IMHO, unless you can do it properly, you'll be better off with a good quality L/R system than an under-specced surround system.

 

Bob

[greenalien]

Hmm - the DSPZ9 kicks out 300Watts per channel, on 7 channels - how is that going to be inadequate for a 200-seat auditorium? That's over 2K, not counting the sub...

 

As far as 'sweet spots' are concerned, where's the 'sweet spot' in your local cinema? We are talking about discreet, directional sound here - all that is needed is correct speaker placement, with efficient speakers mounted on the walls at a suitable height above head level. It would be good to have the walls hung with drapes though, to avoid sound reflection off the walls.

 

Here are a couple of links for the Yamaha DSPZ9 :

 

Click here for a Brief Summary

 

while the Manual and full spec can be downloaded from Yamaha's website

 

(you'd need a detached house - or very tolerant neighbours - if you had one of these in your living room...) :D

[mackerr]

Hmm - the DSPZ9 kicks out 300Watts per channel, on 7 channels - how is that going to be inadequate for a 200-seat auditorium? That's over 2K, not counting the sub...

Maybe it's my new glasses, but when I read that spec sheet you linked to it says 170W for 7 channels and 50W for 2 channels. it doesn't specify which channels only get 50W, but I doubt it matters in a home cinema situation. As for as a 200 seat auditorium, it is woefully inadequate. Deciding how much power a sound system needs by the number of seats is an exercise in futility, but 170W is not going to get realistic levels with any headroom in a professional environment.

As far as 'sweet spots' are concerned, where's the 'sweet spot' in your local cinema? We are talking about discreet, directional sound here - all that is needed is correct speaker placement, with efficient speakers mounted on the walls at a suitable height above head level. It would be good to have the walls hung with drapes though, to avoid sound reflection off the walls.

I think this speaks for itself.

 

Mac

[Bobbsy]

My old glasses see the same as you, mac.

 

THIS page on the Yamaha site says seven channels of 170W and 2 of 50W. However, as with specs on most non-pro equipment, enough information (speaker impedence, distortion, slew factor etc.) is left out to make even these numbers meaningless.

 

As for "sweet spots" and the like, suffice to say that providing a "surround experience" for a few people on a couch in a living room is a very different world to trying to cover 200 people in a 25 X 13 metre room. No domestic system is going to provide acceptable sound to sombody in the front right seat and the guy in the left rear seat (about 30 metres apart!) at the same time.

 

Bob

[greenalien]

As you point out, even Yamaha seem to have some difficulty in being consistent in their power ratings - in the PDF Spec, it says '9.1 Channel 2,280 W (300W x 7 + 90W x 2{DIN}) ! :D

 

 

 

Looks like one of my DSPZ9 links in a previous post didn't work - apologies, please see Brief Description

[duntokin]

thanks for all the advice.

 

I must put my hands up and admit to making a rather large omission in my original post in that due to my focusing on the problem in hand ( and having an Am- Dram company in for the week) I had totally forgotten about the fact that the Hall is currently in the process of bidding £3.5 million for a re-build !!!! and re-birth as an Arts Centre in this County Town.There is £1.5m in the pot already. This will transform the main hall into a 300 seater on bleachers and all the associated bells and whistles. This (might) happen in about 12 months but in the meantime, The trust committee currently use a mate of mine's PA - about 3k but want to have their own that will be transferable into the new build. The cinema stuff will be the first part of the PA install that can be used not only for the cinema club but also as a basic but good pa that ca be used for a variety of events. They also want to be able to take the film club projector, player and PA out to village halls in rural areas where transport for many is a problem. This is, I guess, esentially part of the problem. We want to push the committee into budgeting for an "rather good" Pa ( ie. L'acoustic, Funktion-one ) kit as part of the equipment budget for the new build (as well as some good lighting kit for me) - but in the meantime while this is all waiting to happen the stuff we buy now will have to be able to used as previously mentioned ( we can use it with my buddies PA ) or as a stand alone system. So I guess we need a good, functional mixer and amps to cover the next 12 - 18 months and some good speakers. We were considering 4 x Martin Blackline F15's which we could use for the film club, mounted on tripods and also be used for monitors for stage work with the existing and future PA systems. I may well be sticking my neck out here somewhat as it is all a bit sensitive at the moment but the committee ( like all committees) are elderly, retired or councillors and need, shall we say, guiding along the right path to getting the venue equipped with high quality kit that will not be an embarrassment to use with quality performers and artistes,

 

Many thanks for the comments re the Fohhn kit - it helps me a lot in the "guiding " process. I think we'll have to go with a normal l & R PA for the time being but any suggestions for a good mixer and amps would be appreciated along with any other comments people have.

 

Thanks for your indulgence.

[Matt Riley]

For 20K I'd start seriously thinking about getting a specialist consultant in to sort this stuff out - check their references and visit some of their previous installs. The problem comes that guys like me and many other live sound engineers aren't really experienced at cinema stuff, especially installed stuff. The manager of the local multiplex may have a consultant they used for the build and in the long run, they could save you money. Bar 'the Cube' in soton and the Soul Survivor cinema venue at shepton, both of which aren't what you'd call mainstream cinema installs (the cube has 4*c7, 4*C4 sub and 2 B2s in the rig ; ) I've no real cinema experience. But the principles remain...

 

What I would say , is that there are specific systems, amps and speakers designed to provide accurate cinema sound reinforcement - have a browse of JBLpro.com to see their range, which might help avert a potential mistake. I do think that people are right to say go 5.1 - even the SFL Soul Survivor system is 5.1, and that's just a temporary cattle shed setup! The JBLs shouldn't be too pricey, and would propose that as a more effective solution than using not entirely adequate PA kit (the Fohhns) for stuff it wasn't designed for.

 

Think about a 5.1 decoder feeding some sort of matrix which goes to discrete amps and speakers - possibly delayed into zones if you plan on doing this properly.

 

To sum up - get a real (ie non cowboy) independent consultant whose not tied to any brand and buy once, cry once!

 

Rgds,

 

Matt

[paulears]

I was always under the impression that cinema systems had some pretty tight specs to meet from the licencees of the various systems (dolby and others)?

Cinema used t be very strict about how the channels were spaced and aligned. has this changed?