Bose MA12

[Solstace]

A'noon!

 

Right - I'm in the middle of kit-listing a replacement install for a church. Due to architectural and aesthestic contstraints, we are basically unable to use anything other than long, tall "column" type speakers. The last quote we had from a supplier/consultancy combo just about a year ago suggested the use of four Bose MA12's, perhaps with the matching sub units where live music is being reinforced.

 

Looking at the specs of the MA12's, these don't seem to be terribly different to the column speakers they'd be replacing, other than the higher power rating and rather better looks. Has anyone else used/heard them? Any opinions? Are there any suitable alternatives I should be looking at?

 

To flesh out the details of intended application: The building structure has been designed to feel like one is worshipping in a Big-Top - lots and lots of smooth curves in the ceiling (made of concrete), combined with flat, smooth walls and lots of hard surfaces. The acoustics improved a lot when the place was re-carpeted with deep pile carpet. Now - before anyone tells me to go get the acoustics sorted - I'd love to but this is simply not an option in a listed building where faculties are needed both from the listings AND church authorities before any slight

 

The venue will mostly host conferences, worship and small concert events, as well as the occasional church service. There are no supporting pillars we can use to attach speakers, so we are looking at having to attach to walls at the edge, especially as hanging from the ceiling, or supporting from floor-stands would be unacceptable...

 

The usual complaints about the present sound system are: Too much coverage at the edges of the buildings, not enough "throw" into the centre of the space. Poor intelligibility throughout the building. Prone to feedback. Poor sound for music - either too tinny or too quiet.

 

My own preference would be to use something like D&B E0's or E3's in the existing positions to cover the vocal and acoustic music reinforcement duties, then add in C4/C7 as necessary for any bigger stuff - but these not being column speakers might well mean we can't get faculty to make changes to the present "look and feel"

 

Sorry for such a long post - but I'm just trying to ensure my thinking is straight!

 

C.

[Stuart91]

Looking at the specs of the MA12's, these don't seem to be terribly different to the column speakers they'd be replacing, other than the higher power rating and rather better looks. Has anyone else used/heard them? Any opinions? Are there any suitable alternatives I should be looking at?

 

If you have a search on the Church Sound forum over at prosoundweb.com you should find a decent amount of info. They seem to be more popular in the USA than over here. One thing I remember being emphasised is the need to use two cabinets to form a longer array, apparently it works much better than a single cabinet.

[StevieR]

Column loudspeakers are used in situations where the acoustics are particularly demanding - e.g. places of worship. In essence they are the forerunners of today's Line Arrays utilising multiple drivers to couple the sound waves and produce a more 'directable' beam of sound. If the acoustics are troublesome and the main use of the system is speech reinforcement then I would stick with this plan. There are many alternatives to Bose, though. I personally think Bose have had their day in the live reinforcement market.

 

Don't know the dimensions of your room but there may still be some issues with level in the centre if its fairly wide and you can only mount the speakers on the side walls.

 

Steve

[Stuart91]

I personally think Bose have had their day in the live reinforcement market.

 

It is certainly much more difficult to be a Bose dealer these days. Apparently they lost quite a few dealers when they imposed some new conditions on them a while ago.

[Simon Lewis]

Solstace,

 

Although Bose have come up with some interesting products recently, there are still misgivings about their design and marketing approach.

 

With regards to your present situation, the MA12s might help you, but they are relatively inefficient and the pattern control is held only between 1kHz and 4kHz. This isn't bad, per se, but in terms of keeping energy off the walls / ceiling you may be better off with something with better directivity control.

 

With regards to the church acoustics, your description is reminiscent more of a reverberation chamber than a place of worship! Carpeting the floor will have changed the acoustic response, but not necessarily improved it, since the absorption is all in one plane. It is likely that the RT60 is reduced but flutter echoes and late delayed reflections are more apparent.

 

I advise the local DAC on audio systems, so I am quite aware of the constraints that you face. However, there may well be approaches that can be taken to physically improve matters.

 

The key thing to remember with regards to column loudspeakers is that the response (and the directivity) depends strongly upon the frequency being reproduced and the drive unit diameter and separation. Most column loudspeakers work only up to mid speech frequencies before lobing occurs.

 

There is no guarantee that using MA12s will overcome the problems you describe. There may be an improvement over what was originally there, but the powers that be do need to face up to the realities of providing SRS in this space.

 

Your Bose dealer could model the space for you, but I have anecdotal evidence that not all dealers have provided transparent data from the modeller programme.

 

It may be worth considering a speech system using digital directivity based devices. Do PM or e-mail if you want to explore further thoughts. I'm not looking for business - I just don't want the church to buy a system that doesn't solve the underlying problem!

 

regards,

 

Simon

[dbuckley]

This might be worth a read: Review of MA12 in a church (PDF)

[Simon Lewis]

Again, I'm not knocking the MA12 as such, but I'd feel more comfortable if the reviewer didn't use such loaded and marketing led language.

 

He does point out that there are limitations, but these are the very things that need to work well, if it is to have any true benefit in a highly reverberent space.

[Solstace]

One thing I remember being emphasised is the need to use two cabinets to form a longer array, apparently it works much better than a single cabinet.

 

Yeah - I've been wondering about that in this case. The problem is that we only have budget for 4 - so I wonder whether we could get away with double-stacking in our existing front positions would work better than one in each of the four we have at present...

 

Don't know the dimensions of your room but there may still be some issues with level in the centre if its fairly wide and you can only mount the speakers on the side walls.

 

Also of concern - especially given that the room seems to concentrate sound at the edges and sucks it out of the centre.

 

Although Bose have come up with some interesting products recently, there are still misgivings about their design and marketing approach.

 

Hmm... Let's not start that debate :)

 

 

...in terms of keeping energy off the walls / ceiling you may be better off with something with better directivity control.

 

Yuh-huh. From the Bose specs we shouldn't have too much of a problem with the ceiling - but wall reflections could be problematic!

 

With regards to the church acoustics, your description is reminiscent more of a reverberation chamber than a place of worship! Carpeting the floor will have changed the acoustic response, but not necessarily improved it, since the absorption is all in one plane. It is likely that the RT60 is reduced but flutter echoes and late delayed reflections are more apparent.

 

Good - so I managed to give you enough of a picture of what we face then!! :blink:

 

There is no guarantee that using MA12s will overcome the problems you describe. There may be an improvement over what was originally there, but the powers that be do need to face up to the realities of providing SRS in this space.

 

Indeed - I think we are in a position where the kit we have is sufficiently tired that it could do with an overhaul anyway, so in that sense I've no problem with suggesting kit that will be "fresher" and might give some benefits over what's there now. The problem is that we also need to expand the system sufficiently that we can run some small bands through it. To do this well, we would need to treat the acoustics of the space as well as just ramming a larger PA in - alas we are powerless to do anything with the space that would change anything of the look and feel, unless it's to replace an existing unit with a newer one.

 

C.

[Matt Riley]

Indeed - I think we are in a position where the kit we have is sufficiently tired that it could do with an overhaul anyway, so in that sense I've no problem with suggesting kit that will be "fresher" and might give some benefits over what's there now. The problem is that we also need to expand the system sufficiently that we can run some small bands through it. To do this well, we would need to treat the acoustics of the space as well as just ramming a larger PA in - alas we are powerless to do anything with the space that would change anything of the look and feel, unless it's to replace an existing unit with a newer one.

 

Wow, my first post! Does it have to be the BOSE? Don't forget that there are a number of similar offerings from Tannoy (i7), EAW, and of course TOA which might be at least worth listening to and comparing the ma12s to.

If I were in your position I might suggest a quick listen to the SLS (LS8695?) column speaker with the ribbon HF? I know that a lot of people like them over the pond, and I think that Tim Padrick on PSW has a lot of success using them with rock bands as well?

 

I just noticed a 160 degree horizontal dispersion in the MA12 review? Surely the problem of too much sound on the walls and not enough in the room would not change if your putting something in with this pattern? To compare, the i7 has a nominal 70(h) dispersion and the SLS has a 120 degree (h) dispersion.

 

Just to finish with a quote from bose ..."The advantage [of line arrays in the touring world] is, now

you can hear the poorly-mixed sound as clearly in the back row as you can in the front...” Charming.

 

HTH,

 

Matt

[Solstace]

Wow, my first post! Does it have to be the BOSE? Don't forget that there are a number of similar offerings from Tannoy (i7), EAW, and of course TOA which might be at least worth listening to and comparing the ma12s to.

If I were in your position I might suggest a quick listen to the SLS (LS8695?) column speaker with the ribbon HF? I know that a lot of people like them over the pond, and I think that Tim Padrick on PSW has a lot of success using them with rock bands as well?

 

Thanks Matt - just the kind of info I was looking for!

 

...Just to finish with a quote from bose ..."The advantage [of line arrays in the touring world] is, now

you can hear the poorly-mixed sound as clearly in the back row as you can in the front...” Charming.

 

Yeah - made me chuckle as well! I wonder if the English was not the original language of the review?