Salvage Operation - What should be saved?

[alangeering]

Found in a shed and donated to a local church:

9 x Strand Patt 833

5 x Strand Patt 23

3 x Strand Tempus Dimmers

1 x Strand Tempus 18 Analog Desk

Some assorted gel frames and gel

 

Situation:

The church would like to make use of these. They've been stored in hay, so there's a bit of cleaning to do. The church has a hall with a stage. Unfortunately rooms were built on the stage. They would like to turn it into a venue for local bands and drama groups.

 

Condition:

I've found a supplier for Type T17 bulbs, so the lanterns can be brought back into action. They're in very good condition.

The previous owner couldn't be bothered changing fuses - each time one blew they stuck tape with "fused" written on it over the dimmer socket.

The desk has channels 1 to 6 functioning properly. Lots of faders missing caps.

 

Questions:

1. With a bit of preheating can the 833's be used instead of par cans when we do music events (i.e. will they take the flash button abuse)?

1.a If the 833's are unsuitable, are MultiPars any better than real Par Cans? Can they stand the abuse?

2. What should I look out for WRT the dimmers? Why were so many channels blown? Dimmer issue or were they just abused? What's a good source for fuses?

3. How would the Behringer EUROLIGHT LC2412 do as a replacement desk? (analog to use current dimmers, DMX for future, flash buttons)? The Behringer is on offer at £125 + VAT at the moment.

 

 

I know that's a lot of questions, I apologise, but right now I'm facing many options and I lack the experience to see the best way forward. Quick responses especially welcome as I have events coming up fast!

 

Thanks,

Alan Geering

[mumbles]

1. With a bit of preheating can the 833's be used instead of par cans when we do music events (i.e. will they take the flash button abuse)?

I wouldn't like too. They take either T17 or T24 for 500W and something else fpor 250W (I may be wrong here about exactly which models so please correct me if I am), and so are theatrical lamps. These won't stand up to flashing in the same way that a par lamps, but the preheat would reduce the problem.

 

1.a If the 833's are unsuitable, are MultiPars any better than real Par Cans? Can they stand the abuse?

I've never seen the great benefit of multipars, as they seem to be able to have one lamp, and then change the lenses. For music I don't see the benefit of either changing the lenses instead of the lamps. But, I only use medium lamps for this, and so haven't used multipars before.

 

2. What should I look out for WRT the dimmers? Why were so many channels blown? Dimmer issue or were they just abused? What's a good source for fuses?

If the fuses have just blown over time, then there may not be a problem, but unles you know what you're looking at get someone else to check it. For fuses, I've found a couple of rental houses hire out tempus(es?) so they will be the best place to find out where to get fuses.

 

3. How would the Behringer EUROLIGHT LC2412 do as a replacement desk? (analog to use current dimmers, DMX for future, flash buttons)? The Behringer is on offer at £125 + VAT at the moment

Aaaargh, the LC2412, I can't give an unbiased opinion as I hate them with a passion. The only thing for you to be aware of is that the analog out is on a D connector, and not an 8 pin as the dimmers are, so would need a way of splitting the D connector into 3 analog leads.

 

EDIT: Sorry, just had another look at the behringer website, and it appears to only support channels 1-12 with the analog output, with a 15 pin D connector, so won't be suitable for 18 channels of dimmer

 

Also,

I've found a supplier for Type T17 bulbs, so the lanterns can be brought back into action.

Many suppliers, if not every, will stock T17 and T24 lamps, so have a look round to find the cheapest.

[Ekij]

Lots of faders missing caps.

A common affliction for older desks. RS/Farnell/Maplin sell some fader caps, it's unlikely you will get ones that are the same shape but you might be fortunate enough to get ones that fit the faders (I've bought a few in my time only to discover they don't fit the desk faders I needed, still they are cheep enough to get some and see (after checking the data-sheet to see that they are 'close' to what you need)).

 

1. are MultiPars any better than real Par Cans? Can they stand the abuse?

My understanding is that Multi-Pars are the same as Pars except for a variety of lenses in the front and therefore should stand exactly the same abuse as normal Pars.

2. What should I look out for WRT the dimmers? Why were so many channels blown? Dimmer issue or were they just abused?

Perhaps people putting too many lamps on the one channel. Perhaps something more sinister. I advise a 'suck-it-and-see' philosophy.

 

Edit: To fix a typo.

[alangeering]

Thanks for the replies so far.

 

The problem with the desk goes beyond just the missing caps, looking at it now I see that the sticks the caps sit on are also snapped. I would have to solder new faders onto the board to have a chance of restoring channels 7-18.

 

The Behringer desk's 12 analog channels are fine as the venue doesn't have power for all three dimmers to be used simultaniously. One will be kept as a spare. I don't like making up cables but if I have to to get from the behringer desk to the dimmers then I will... or I might just modify the desk to have proper analog outputs.

 

Anyway... there doesn't seem to be a substancial review of the Behringer desk anywhere. I'd be grateful if you shared your hates and the reasons for them. At the moment I'm looking at the cheap price tag and contemplating getting the credit card out. Stop me before it's too late!

 

Thanks again,

Alan G

[SceneMaster]

Use the search function!!!

 

Here is an example of one of the many topics I found by typing “Behringer EUROLIGHT LC2412” into the search at the top of the screen.

 

Topic 1

 

Basically the desk is rubbish and really not worth the time investing the money in. It is based on a decent design by MA (I own the MA design and so support the MA version strongly) however it has been very poorly executed one major problem is the poor A to D conversion, need I say more.

[paulears]

a few snagettes - trying to interface old strand analogue equipment to other brand equipment is always a tough one because the polarity it often reversed - various tricks over the years - electronics capable people often knock up solutions to this one.

 

If the fader lever is snapped off, that is a bit more of a problem as they are not concentional faders, but resistance wired ones if memory serves - certainly the mini 2 which came before these were 100% wire wound - I haven't seen any for ages.

 

Come on everybody - PLEASE let's not start the Behringer battle off yet again. The Behringer has a place - it can with much head scratching be used - but it isn't the most friendly piece of kit, with a pretty poor manual - but it does a lot for the money. There isn't any way I'd use one - but I can see that for some things, it would do. It won't, of course, talk to the strand kit - and any interface that would let it will cost a lot more than the control costs!

 

T class theatre lamps don't like flashing - well, everybody cites massive lamp failures and doom and gloom - but although I have no doubt the lamp life is shortened, by how much? I've flashed everything from patt. 23/123s since I started and when they go, they go - after all, the bubbles are cheaper than a PAR64, so is this really a problem. 833s are more annoying for their imitation of a glow worm, than a lamp eater.

 

10A HRC type fuses are still available - take one into your nearest electrical wholesaler - no problem. The plastic fuse carrier is the rare bit - don't lose them!

[Ynot]

Condition:

I've found a supplier for Type T17 bulbs, so the lanterns can be brought back into action. They're in very good condition.

OK - first thing - if you can get a hold of a decent sparks, (preferably one with theatre exp) you can buy, relatively cheaply, the conversion kits for the patt 23's, and possibly the 833's. That would allow you to use more modern TH bubbles instead of the basic tungsten T17's. And you can go up to the 650W versions too, which gives you even more of a light output kick.

I've used the 833's, tho not in the last 20 years (!) as with their original lamps, they're about as much use as a tin can with the back door open! Conversion to TH bubbles MIGHT help, though I doubt too much. The 800 series were, IMHO, probably the worst lantern Strand ever produced!!

1. With a bit of preheating can the 833's be used instead of par cans when we do music events (i.e. will they take the flash button abuse)?

They'd take a fair bit of flash abuse' BUT they won't look anything like a par can's output. The problem with the older tungsten bulbs is the time they take to warm up to full - you can pretty much guarantee that with an 833 if you hit the flash button quickly, then release, you'll get maybe 60% max brightness, if that. Par cans are better, but still not instant.

1.a If the 833's are unsuitable, are MultiPars any better than real Par Cans? Can they stand the abuse?

Simple answer, yes. The multipars are a cheap copy of the Source 4 Par, for which the HPL575 bubbles were designed, (and, incidentally why ETC aren't at all happy with the rip-offs!!). These bubbles have a pretty fast switch on/off time, and I rate them quite highly in my arsenal. (I have around 30 par cans and 16 multi pars). There are two advantages with the multipars - firstly the lanterns come with the 4 beam width lenses which means that to get those beam angles out of the lanterns, I don't need to keep 4different bubbles per fixture, as you would with standard pars. Secondly, and probably more important in your case, is the fact that they consume just over half the current for what I'd say is a brighter output. So with limited power you can get more light from your system.

2. What should I look out for WRT the dimmers? Why were so many channels blown? Dimmer issue or were they just abused? What's a good source for fuses?

Take the racks to your nearest theatre tech supplier/hire co. Ask them to assess the racks for you. They should be able to bench test them under full load and give you an idea whether there are faulty channels or just blown fuses (which they should be able to supply). The Tempus racks are a pretty bomb-proof piece of kit, and IIRC are fairly easy to diagnose/repair. Fuses can blow on the racks for two main reasons - over-loading of a channel (quite common with inexperienced lampies) or when faced with a full short - eg when a lamp blows it can sometimes present a full short across the filament legs just before it goes open circuit, thus increasing the current through the fuse. If said channel was loaded to a full 2K to start with it wouldn't take too much to take the fuse OTT.

3. How would the Behringer EUROLIGHT LC2412 do as a replacement desk? (analog to use current dimmers, DMX for future, flash buttons)? The Behringer is on offer at £125 + VAT at the moment.

AVOID THIS DESK LIKE THE PLAGUE! I've never personally used one, but after reading and hearing SO many nightmare stories on here and elsewhere, I hope I never see one! Best bet? For small gigs I'd recommend the Strand 100, or possibly the 200 as a suitable replacement. However you will need to buy a DMX-analogue demux. But they're coming down in price these days.

[mumbles]

I'd be grateful if you shared your hates and the reasons for them. At the moment I'm looking at the cheap price tag and contemplating getting the credit card out. Stop me before it's too late!

My problems with the LC2412, in no particular order,

- Having grown up learning on an alcora, then stepping on to a strand 200, the time I used a LC2412, I found the logic behind it, with patching, and recording chases etc at odds with the way I had learn't. While this isn't an actual problem with the desk it annoyed me.

- The feel of the desk was just to clumsy when compared to many of the other desks.

- No easy to access pages of subs, so busking is that bit harder (I don't know if it did have subs, but the manual wasn't clear enough during the plot, and the memories aren't quick enough to use)

 

Personally, if you have a working tempus, I would prefer to keep that running, as it doesn't have the complications of having computer to argue with. Anyway, before you buy one, try to get one to play with, to find whether you like it or not, not as easy with this desk as some to get a demo, but if you can, don't commit to it before you know whether you can use it.

 

WRT the 15 pin analog, pins 1-6 wire to pins 1-6 on plug 1. Pins 7-12 wire to 1-6 on the second pin. Then pin 13 to pin 7 on plug 1, and pin 14 to pin 7 on plug 2, and pin 15 to pin 8 on both plugs. I believe this is right from the behringer wesite, I may be wrong, but wiring a lead will be alot easier than changing the socket on the desk.

[Rikio]

WRT the 15 pin analog, pins 1-6 wire to pins 1-6 on plug 1. Pins 7-12 wire to 1-6 on the second pin. Then pin 13 to pin 7 on plug 1, and pin 14 to pin 7 on plug 2, and pin 15 to pin 8 on both plugs. I believe this is right from the behringer wesite, I may be wrong, but wiring a lead will be alot easier than changing the socket on the desk.

 

This won't work - The LC2412 outputs analog on the +10v system, the Tempus racks are expecting -10v.

 

Some kind of a converter box would be needed!

 

Rikio

[tokm]

Some kind of a converter box would be needed!

 

Try Usedlighting.co.uk for stuff like that.

 

Maybe an idea to pickup a cheap showtec demux. Ok you still have to nock up a 25dsub to 4x 8pin din cable, but atleast theres less fiddling around with polarity converters etc.

 

Makes the process a little less hassle.

 

Tom

[3guk]

Not the best review of the behringer : http://www.ukslc.org/Reviews/Lighting/Behringer_LC2412.html

 

But may help a little.

[Jivemaster]

The lanterns will renovate and test and come up to their original standard, Likely they will be suplimented by PARs or multipars later.

 

The Packs and desk communicate with the older -10v control system which is not always supported on modern kit ( esp budget kit ) If the dim packs can be fully renovated then it may be worth seeking a demux that will turn DMX into -10 then the desk can be replaced when funds allow.

 

Til then a 6 chan system seems like the available option unless you can get the faders replaced.

 

With ANY budget kit be sure that the output will be -10v rather than the current +10v

[robloxley]

Or hunt round for a 2nd hand Tempus or LX for control?

[mumbles]

Or hunt round for a 2nd hand Tempus or LX for control?

There is currently a tempus 12 on ebay, which would appear to be ideal for what you need.

[alangeering]

• This post:
  
• Thanks
  
• Tempus 12 on Ebay
  
• Demux
  
• -10v
  
• Behringer
  
• Search Function
  

Thanks

Thanks to all who have responded. It's really been very informative and I now have a much clearer idea of what has to be done. Your advice is appreciated.

 

Tempus 12 on ebay

Yep, I was already watching it. It looks in mostly good condition and I can use the Tempus 18 for spare fader caps etc. Let's see what price it fetches... one small problem though: no flash buttons - so I'd need another desk for flashing PAR cans etc.

 

Demux & -10v

Wow, what a mess, some companies using +10v others using -10v... it's enough to make a man pull his hair out. If the Tempus racks are as sturdy as people say they are then using a DMX to analog dmux sounds like a great idea. The old dimmers are missing few of the features of new desks though - like MCBs.

 

Behringer

Really, a big thanks for the warning. If I do get it it will be because it's cheaper than nearly any other alternative with 12 ch, flash buttons and scene programmability. I just can't see much at the same 120+VAT price point that can do all that. I'm most experienced with the ETC express, and have some experience with the Zero88 frog... but prices for those desks are £3k and £1.6k respectively - that's a lot of money!

 

Search function

I did actually use it, I just forgot the LC in front of the 2412. Actually I've spent a lot of time reading up on this site (including the huge LED PAR debate) before posting.

• The current plan is:
  
• Finish cleaning up lantern stock
  
• Buy set of 8 T17 bulbs to get started
  
• Move blown fuses around so that I have working fuses in the 2 dimmers we're going to use.
  
• Buy a 2nd hand desk or go for the Behringer + cheap demux option (also allows me to use a USB-DMX device)
  
• Buy and have installed the LX bars
  
• Have everything tested for electrical safety
  

• That should give me a working system. After that it's time to slowly expand with:
  
• Upgrade building electrics (the limiting factor is actually the poor supply we get into the building)
  
• PAR cans & 1 or 2 slightly newer profiles