New at this lampy business

[SpecialK]

Hey all

 

Please don't shoot me but I'm a sound engineer and I know most of the sound kit I use or I am likely to use inside out, but lately I've started doing a bit of lighting and there were a few questions I had for experienced folk.

 

1) Power - At my usual work we have stacks and stacks of power (couple of 63 3phase etc) so when patching in lighting the power consumption isn't much of a worry. But I've been asked to run lighting at a few smaller gigs which don't have such nice power facilaties. How do I work out how much power a light will draw (i.e. a par 500) and when I've worked that out how much can I pull from a standard ring main? Can I pull upto 13a from each socket, or is there a max to each ring?

 

2) Software - I've seen many discussions (read arguments!) on whether using design software for lighting is useful for paperwork etc, but for a newbie like me will it be useful to me in the sense that it'll teach me what I can do with lights and the paperwork involved in lighting.

 

3) Miniscan type lights - As I'm new to this my set ups have generally been a load of pars and a couple of strobes, but I've been asked to add a couple of miniscans into my next set up. I've had a play with them and can fully operate them, but I cannot seem to think of any decent chases to do with them. They dont have the full functionality of a moving head and I cant think of how I should run them in gigs, any tips?

 

Sorry for my rambling, like I said I'm a bit new to the lampy side of things but willing to learn!!

 

Shaun

[PDD]

1) Power - // How do I work out how much power a light will draw // Can I pull upto 13a from each socket, or is there a max to each ring?

Lamp wattage (e.g. 1000W) divided by mains voltage (e.g. 230V) = current (amps) (4.35A in that case). A standard ring main is usually 32A per ring (only 13A per socket obviously). Of course, you need to check what else is being supplied by that ring elsewhere in the building. In fact, you need to check and double-check everything first and don't take my word for it.

 

2) Software - // for a newbie like me will it be useful to me in the sense that it'll teach me what I can do with lights and the paperwork involved in lighting.

Personally I think it's best to start the old-fashioned way - pen, pencil and calculator. Software is a tool, and I don't think it will teach you unless you know what to do in the first place - it's more likely to confuse you even more!

 

3) Miniscan type lights - //I cant think of how I should run them in gigs, any tips?

This is slightly more difficult without knowing your set up. You could pre-plot some moves and colours perhaps, or even leave them to run 'stand-alone' with the beat of the music.

[zonino]

Amps = Watts/Voltage

 

so a 500W par can will draw:

 

Amps = 500W/230V = 2.2A

 

you can pull 13A from a single socket, but you can't pull 26A from a double socket (I think its about 20A that you can pull)

 

2) software, I'd say you probably don't need to consider software yet, have a play about first :unsure:

 

3) I'd say this depends how many mirrors you have, if its 4 or more you have alot more options than with say 2! I must say though stand alone scans irritate me ;-)

 

 

edit: must type faster!

[Ynot]

Hey all

Hi Shaun - welcome to the BR

1) Power - How do I work out how much power a light will draw (i.e. a par 500) and when I've worked that out how much can I pull from a standard ring main? Can I pull upto 13a from each socket, or is there a max to each ring?

Basic Ohm's Law.

P=IV

I=P/V

P = Power in Watts

I = Current in Amps

V = Voltage in, well, Volts!

Assuming the one constant V is 230v, you can work out anything you need with those formulae.

On a 13A skt on a 32A r1ng main that has NOTHING else connected to it you should be able to draw 2990W so a max of 5 Par 56 500W lanterns - 6 if you're REALLY lucky, but I wouldn't push that!

Using two SEPARATE skts (NOT two on a single 2-gang outlet) you can draw the same. I would definitely NOT recommend you connect a third dimmer pack in this instance.

Those calculations are out of the window if there is any doubt that you have sole use of the ring!

Note, btw, that there are several other threads of this ilk already - maybe a search for more info would help you more??

2) Software -

Personally, I would recommend you concentrate on learning what does what and what effect ithas on stage before you start thinking about software like CAD packages or OLE's or such like. Walk before you can run! :)

3) Miniscan type lights -

Are these DMX controllable scans? If so they should be operable from any half-decent DMX desk. However, if they're not DMX, or if they're simple DJ-style DMX units,then that explains maybe why you can't control them better. Some detail on what lanterns these are would help us.

 

Anyway, hope that gets your query off the ground.

 

TD

 

EDIT: Don't you just HATE it when one person gets there first! Let alone TWO!! :P :D :P

Mind you - we all agree!!! :unsure:

[mumbles]

Hello, and welcome to the light side, :unsure:

 

1) A par 56 will draw either 300 or 500 watts depending on the lamp (I normally use 300 watt lamps), and par 64 will almost always be lamped as 1kw, this along with other info can be found in the FAQ section.

Drawing off a ring, as I understand it, you will be to draw up to 13A per socket, up to a maximum as set by the breaker. For my work in churches this breaker is quite often 32A, but you would have to find out for your venue. On this basis, you can draw 3120 watts per socket up to a maximum of 7680 watts per breaker. Again, this will depend on your venue.

 

2) For the moment, if you're using a mix of par cans and a few specials, then I wouldn't bother with a WYSIWYG or CAD program, just because it is aimed at events with much larger rigs (eg 60+ par64s and many movers, or a theatre rig). I would suggest that the best way to learn what different lights do etc is to have a play. Try something out, and if you don't like it do something different next time. I am slowly moving into using CAD to draw up plans, and visualisers, but I don't think that it would be the best way to learn as a beginner.

 

3) Not knowing the specific lights, or how you're controlling them, I wouldn't like to start giving ideas on what you want to do. If you're controlling them by DMX, using a desk like a fat frog, then learn to build up palettes, which will give you the ability to change what you have at the push of a button. This would be my approach if you were going to be busking. Alongside this, you could build up chases to provide movements, dimmer pulses, colour chases etc.

However, this would depend on the fixtures and the controller you would be using, as well as the type of event that it is. If you can post more info about, then there are many people who will offer ideas and experience.

 

Good luck, and welcome to the blue room.

 

 

EDIT: Whoops, too late

[SpecialK]

wow thanks for the help guys

 

yea the miniscans are DMX, I'm running them into a jands event 36, they take up the "usual 7 channels". just wandering with mirrored lights what sort of chases people do with them? i.e. just put them up on the wall with spinning gobos, moving lights across floor, spotting band members etc?

 

sounds like I cant use many of my lights on a r1ng then, considering that all the sound PA comes off the same ring :unsure: perhaps I should buy 300W bulbs (or just 60W houselights!!)

 

Do you guys face this lack of power problem often? Have you been able to easily persuade venues to install 32 / 63 / 63 3phase distros in?

 

oh and if you ever need sound help, just shout - I'm still on the dark side!!

 

Shaun

[PDD]

what sort of chases people do with them? i.e. just put them up on the wall with spinning gobos, moving lights across floor, spotting band members etc?

Yeah, sounds about right.

 

perhaps I should buy 300W bulbs

Yeah, again, a good idea, particularly if it's a small venue and you're just using the pars to splash some colour around. Persuade the sound guy to pull less power :P

 

Do you guys face this lack of power problem often?

Oh yes! My current venue is okay, but I'm about to move to a venue with only a 63A feed for the entire theatre lighting rig (as far as I know at the moment anyway). Should be fun with a calculator and low-wattage lamps!

 

(First again :unsure: )

[Ynot]

sounds like I cant use many of my lights on a r1ng then, considering that all the sound PA comes off the same ring :unsure: perhaps I should buy 300W bulbs (or just 60W houselights!!)

 

Do you guys face this lack of power problem often? Have you been able to easily persuade venues to install 32 / 63 / 63 3phase distros in?

Depending on the type of gig you're doing in these ill-equipped places, yes, the option is always to use lower powered kit. And be VERY careful when mixing light & sound power, for obvious reasons!

 

As for does it happen often, yes - FAR too often!

 

Having said that, I lit the junior school play at the place my missus teaches last year with 2 betapacks in 13A sockets, with sound run from a separate ring via a long extension to a classroom! This year I managed to persuade them to install some 63A supply to the hall - it is apparently being fitted this Friday - however the dress rehearsal forTHIS year's show (Annie) is on Thursday morning.......!!! :P

Guess who's making do with 2 packs again and half the planned lights until I can re-set Friday after school.....!!

:D

[zonino]

re chase types: pan chases, tilt chases

 

how many of the scans do you have? I program differently depending on the number!

 

bear in mind you don't have to have all the lights on at once, with careful planning you can rig many more times the lights than you have power for! (I think my most thought out one to date was about 30*1000W lamps off 63A, so no more than half of the rig one at once) but you have to be careful that everyone who might use the desk knows about this!

 

I managed to convince the estates department at the university to "find" me an extra 63A temporarily for a gig, but thats probably a different situation!

 

edit: just looked at your profile, so badgering the estates department may be an option! go with the "it'd be really really helpful if you could do this, this is what I want to run"

 

I went with a breakdown of how many dimmers I wanted where, how much I needed for the P.A. etc, they may not understand what its for that well, but amps is amps! (for futher information on getting past university politics feel free to pm me, particularly experienced with York!)

[PDD]

I lit the junior school play at the place my missus teaches last year with 2 betapacks in 13A sockets, with sound run from a separate ring via a long extension to a classroom!

Sounds exactly like a mini-tour I did a few years ago round some church halls with 2 betapacks, 2 stands and I think it was 6 Minim F's! Actually, it was a fun show. (If I can verge off-topic for a moment longer, the only venue with any in-house gear in fact was so antique and dangerous I used the touring rig anyway!)

 

I managed to convince the estates department at the university to "find" me an extra 63A temporarily for a gig, but thats probably a different situation!

It's amazing what Estates departments can find! I didn't ask too many questions when recently a 63A supply appeared in our chapel by request, and likewise in our sports hall for a recent concert.

[SpecialK]

I managed to convince the estates department at the university to "find" me an extra 63A temporarily for a gig, but thats probably a different situation!

 

At my usual work, at the uni we pestered them a long time ago and have looooooads of power, my questions are more in reference to gigs I work at in other much smaller venues that really aren't designed for gig work!!

 

I did run a search first, but I wanted to add to the points given there with other questions too, sorry if it annoyed.

[niclights]

I don't want to sound like Mr. Boring, but I found the last question a bit strange. It seems very wrong to me for someone to say they want you to use a specific kind of light. I appreciate you not being a lampy and therefore not knowing what people might do, but this is completely the wrong way of going about things. It is no different to someone telling you they want you to use a condensor mic without giving a reason and then insisting you find a way to use it. You should have a goal and then pick the correct tools to achieve it, not choose some tools and then find a way to make use of them. Just plain bad!

 

That aside, with any sort of moving light it is generally very difficult to achieve much with less than four units. Two might be suitable for focus on lead or a mirrorball. Also, just for future reference, there are no 'standard' number of control channels for an intelligent fixture.

[Oovis]

For my work in churches this breaker is quite often 32A, but you would have to find out for your venue. On this basis, you can draw 3120 watts per socket up to a maximum of 7680 watts per breaker. Again, this will depend on your venue.

 

Just being pedantic, really, but your maths is based on a 240V nominal voltage. You should be working to 230V. This would give you a value of 7360W for the full final circuit. I wouldn't recommend running this close to the full rating of the breaker though.

[SpecialK]

In reply to Niclights: As you said I'm not a lampy, and yes when it comes to sound if someone told me to use a particular mic without a reason / justification I'd make up my own mind, but I didnt know that this was also how you guys did it.

 

tbh with the complete lack of power, and sound guys who like beefy PA's :unsure: , I think I'll just tell them I wont do it.

 

I'll just keep practising at my usual work where power isnt a problem!!

 

Oh and also niclghts, again sorry, it just seemed that every light I've used has used 7 DMX channels I assumed this was the norm, thanks for pointing out my mistake :P

[mumbles]

Just being pedantic, really, but your maths is based on a 240V nominal voltage. You should be working to 230V. This would give you a value of 7360W for the full final circuit. I wouldn't recommend running this close to the full rating of the breaker though.

Fair comment, always aimed to keep below 2.5kW per 13A socket and below 6kW per breaker just to give a bit spare if anyone plugged a desk lamp etc in, so never been to close to it.

 

Thank you for pointing this out for anyone who reads my post