Students working in theatres

[techman]

I am the technical manager of a charity run theatre and am being aproached by 15 to 17 year old students who would like to learn about various aspects of theatre. Can anyone tell me of any regulations connected with students doing voluntry work at my theatre as technitions. I started out as a casual tech when I was 15 and there was no problems then but we seem to live in a world were common sense has gone out of the window to be replaced with endless stupid regulations. Can anyone advise me on this?

[pritch]

Perhaps this thread will be of some use?

 

http://www.blue-room.org.uk/index.php?showtopic=6414

 

It refers to schools, but hopefully a lot of it will be relevant to your case as well.

[techman]

Perhaps this thread will be of some use?

 

http://www.blue-room.org.uk/index.php?showtopic=6414

 

It refers to schools, but hopefully a lot of it will be relevant to your case as well.

 

Thanks for that.

 

It appears that nowadays it has been made impossible for students to become involved in theatre as restrictions become tighter and tighter. I do hope the youth of today can hold on to there hopes and dreams of working in the industry until they are a little older. It seems for now that 14 & 15 year olds will have to stick to less restricted activities like vandalism, street crime, and other anti social behaviour until they can work with us and do something more productive!

[thelightbulb]

well I am a casual tech and I'm only 17 but yeh there are too many restrictions

[Jammie300]

I'm a volunteer at my local theatre and I am 15.

 

And I am the student sound technician at school. Mind you the only thing apparently we cannot do is work at height

 

Jammie300

[paulears]

Don't forget that it is illegal, yes - illegal for under 16s to work in a theatre. Obviously loads of people totally ignor this, either through ignorance, or necessity - but it is on the list of prohibited locations (the local education authority deal with this kind of thing). Essentially, many are common sense ones, but some are exactly the places under 16s end up working in. A commercial kitchen (so washing up or food prep is out), theatres (that's our one messed up), bars serving alcohol (so no glass collecting) and abbatoirs - which don't sound the kind of places kids would want to work in.

 

The only exceptions to theatres are when the theatre run a childrens production and an appropriate licence is in force.

 

I think most people agree this is total tosh. However, doing something technically illegal would make a mess of any insurance policy, wouldn't it? In this litigeous age, insurance companies looking for loopholes would seem to have found a rather large one!

 

Jamies view on working at height is his schools own policy, and isn't a legal thing. Under 18s are not considered responsible for their actions, but it is slightly complicated by the fact that if an under 18 has been provided with training, then they do have an measure of self responsibility. So, a school or college who design a programme to make sure people are safe, and provide genuine training and support can get insurance. I go to some schools and colleges who have a blanket ban on anything off the ground - including step ladders, and others who have special insurance to allow 16 year old to use high wire, slack wire and flying trapeze - perfectly legally.

 

The snag, I think, is that the teachers very often don't feel competent themselves, and quite rightly don't then want to be responsible for the safety of their students. Some of the staff could be industry trained and have better perception and understanding of safety issues - others, may just perceive any risk as something that must be somebody elses problem.

 

My old college had a health and safety officer who was the ex-fire officer for the area. In this senior position, he visited offshore gas installations, industrial premises and all sorts of potentially dangerous sites. This gave him the perspective and skills required to assess risk properly. Hence I always had a fairly easy time carrying out all sorts of useful training, with his support (and assistance, if required).

 

He introduced a rescue element to my safety sessions. He pointed out, that if somebody aloft had an accident, then getting them down to ground level was the number one priority so that first aid could be applied. Waiting for the fire service to arrive and rescue somebody added vital minutes to an accident - and he explained that seconds, not minutes count. So he did a fire service style rescue session, covering knots, rescue techniques using available equipment - all aimed at reducing danger to life. We did this for just two years, then things changed and we stopped. I'd like to think that at least 30 people would at least now have some idea how to deal with a situation of this kind. After all, any first aid is better than none at all, so the same thing applies to any area of hightened risk.

 

 

The ad on the TV makes me smile - "I was given an unsuitable ladder........" This person, an experienced burglar alarm fitter, should have known it was the wrong kind of ladder and not used it. Students need the same knowledge. Simply banning working above ground doesn't stop it - and I'd argue that in an area where students may work unsupervised, climbing a banned pair of step ladders is pretty likely - so even basic safety training on their use has to be safer (with students, and untamed keenness) than no training at all?

[Ynot]

Don't forget that it is illegal, yes - illegal for under 16s to work in a theatre. Obviously loads of people totally ignor this, either through ignorance, or necessity - but it is on the list of prohibited locations (the local education authority deal with this kind of thing).

Okay..... But where do westand as an am-dram theatre run by volunteers FOR volunteers.

James actually 'works' in my venue, or more to the point, is (hopefully) learning there. Yes, sometimes he's in the thick of stuff, and I've given him, at times, a little rope to branch out on his own with a little responsibility(eg babysit the dance/drama festivals by driving the LX desk, for instance) which builds his experience a jot.

But as a volunteer, where do we stand with him? Have to say that as far as I know there's no direct exclusion from the insurance policy (though I'm now prompted to dig it out and double check!!), although I do take care with what I ask James to do. I wouldn't ask/expect him to carry out anything more electrical than plug in a lantern, for example. I have given him the opportunity to climb ladders (under supervision) but as he's none too keen on doing so at this stage the last thing I'd do is force that one!

Personally, I'd have to say that we use as much common sense as needed when ushering the youngsters through the tech crew - the school that James attends has provided probably half a dozen or more lads that have become a large part of our crew over the years - James is one of at least three who subscribe to the BR.

The only exceptions to theatres are when the theatre run a childrens production and an appropriate licence is in force.

True, but I suspect that very few volunteer managers like us have even thought about the situation re tech staff and licencing! Over half the crew are CRB'd etc, with more coming on as we progress, but I'm not entirely sure whether the rules apply to backstage as well - I don't recall any mention of same in the papers I've had (mental note to check this with WCC contacts as well!!).

 

TD

[robloxley]

Looking at the various regs (Education Act 1996; Children and

Young Persons Acts 1933/63 etc.) it all seems complicated. From my reading:

 

Children can perform in shows given a local authority license, fine.

 

Children under 13yo cannot be emloyed at all. Employment includes "assistance in any trade or occasion which is carried on for profit, whether or not payment is received for assistance".

 

Children (>13yo, upto school leaving age) specifically cannot be employed (see above) in a theatre, except in connection with a performance given entirely by children. So teching for youth theatre shows seems fine.

 

So for other shows can children be involved on the tech side? It all seems to revolve around whether they are employed (see above), hence whether the show is 'carried on for profit'. So as for helping 'am-dram' groups (which are generally not carried on for profit), it seems like you're fine, as it doesn't seem to come under the scope of 'employment'. Volunteering for a commercial theatre, directly, seems a no-no. (Obviously I'm not a lawyer etc. etc.)

 

Bona fide work experience is another matter entirely.

[mumbles]

Don't forget that it is illegal, yes - illegal for under 16s to work in a theatre. Obviously loads of people totally ignor this, either through ignorance, or necessity - but it is on the list of prohibited locations (the local education authority deal with this kind of thing). Essentially, many are common sense ones, but some are exactly the places under 16s end up working in.

As an aside, what are the rules for under 16's working on music shows, either indoors in a venue or outdoors. My reason for asking is that my brother aged 14 often comes along to help when I'm lighting a gig, be it in a church or for a festival event. Now, I won't let him do lifting, or rigging of lights on ground supports, truss, or stands for the insurance reasons, but he will often work round behind me, running 15A cable, 16A or DMX. Also, he will often op for a while to gain experience. I myself do do the shows in order to make some money, and will sometimes depending on how I feel give him a bit to say thank you, so this does count as commercial, but is he allowed to, or do I have to tell him he has to wait for a few years.

 

I will admit, that for many of the shows at churches I do, I will probably still get him involved even if it isn't strictly complying with the rules, as I feel that he is competent to run cables to a plan, as this is then checked anyway. Also, with the exception of power, I make sure that he doesn't do anything that could lead to problems (lights falling from truss, or filter frames falling out etc), but how far do the rules go, in stating what he can and can't do. Is opping prohibited (also is it prohibited in theatres)?, and how do the rules clarify the difference between a theatre, and a music stage?

[Ynot]

how far do the rules go, in stating what he can and can't do. Is opping prohibited (also is it prohibited in theatres)?, and how do the rules clarify the difference between a theatre, and a music stage?

I would suspect that the problem is that there are no actual rules per se governing what youngsters can physically do or not do. Much of it will probably be down to guidelines and practicailities and/or risk assessments

[paulears]

I guess it all comes down to interpretation of the legislation. In this case, we're talking about the word 'theatre'. Now is a church putting on a theatrical style production 'theatre'? Common sense says no, but as far as I'm aware this hasn't been tested in court - so until it does - it really is a guess. Music events don't follow the typical theatrical performance process, so probably are clear of worry.

 

My feeling is that the original legislation was drafted a long time ago when theatre was perhaps seen by outsiders to be seedy in some way,and of course, involves work at hours unsuitable for people still at school. I have never heard of anybody from a local authority ever querying this kind of thing, but that doesn't stop it being wrong. My 15 yr old is quite useful, and it's a shame that he spent his work experience 2 weeks in a sports shop rather than working with me - but the school knew the rules!

[Ynot]

I guess it all comes down to interpretation of the legislation.

Well, just had the reply back from my county council CPS rep. The question was:

How do we stand with regard to under 16's working backstage? ie on stage crew, or with lighting/sound equipment/control?

I have one young lad who comes down as a volunteer - he does a LOT of theatre type stuff at his own school, being in his final year, but obviously things could well be different at the theatre...

And the response was:

We would need to licence him as part of the performance - if he is doing 5 days or more in a 6 month period.

Which basically means that under the legislation, he should be treated in the same way as a performer.

So, sorry James - looks like we'll be having to fill in some forms pretty soon!! :)

[paulears]

This raises a pretty important question. Can a non-performer be licensed as part of a performance with no children performers?

 

The idea was that a licensed childrens showcould use children as technical support - I'm interested that the council seem to be suggesting licencing a production just to allow one person to participate backstage, therefore getting around the law?

 

Pretty clever - does this mean that all that has to happen is that you apply for the licence, nominate somebody as the chaperone, do the paperwork and then they can work pretty well whenever? Will they have an hours limit per day?

 

As an aside - when I was researching licencing for theatrical use as part of the college course, I came accross an old bit of legislation, still in force that requires a licence for using a monkey on stage. I had hours of fun asking for one from the local council, who knew nothing at all, but when they checked found the same details - nobody knew which department could issue such a licence.

[Ynot]

This raises a pretty important question. Can a non-performer be licensed as part of a performance with no children performers?...

I'm not really sure what all of this means to the situation here.

IF the 'child' is licensed as a tech crew-person on an all adult show, then theoretically yes, they'd need a chaperone/matron - which I'm sure would go down like a lead balloon with most youngsters of that age I've known! :)

 

I would imagine that they'd also be subject to the same hours limitation as a performer.

 

DT

[Jammie300]

So, sorry James - looks like we'll be having to fill in some forms pretty soon!! :(

 

 

I am confused can someone give all this to me in simple terms please.

 

Jammie300

 

AKA James in this topic