Orchestra PA System, advice needed

[soundworxeng]

Hi all. Im in sort of a jam trying to set up a sound system to cover a full classical orchestra set up in an outdoor car park.As a flying system is out of the question im thinking of adopting a ground stacked system infront of the orchestra itself.Seating capacity is for 5500 people on a teared seating set up on a 45 degree angle with aproximately 22 rows set up ina an amphitheatrical style. as a ground stacked left and right system is not possible due to obstruction of sightlines could I have some suggestions. The first row of seats are at a distance of 8 meters from the orchestra.I will appreciate your wisdom and knowledge on the subject.

[Ben Lawrance]

I'm sure Mark Payne will be along shortly. He should be able to sort you out.

[djw1981]

Do you have a stage with cover, if there is a cover then there is surely the option for either truss to carry the flown PA, or even a PA tower (search for PA tower for previous topics on the towers, their loadings, height and space required.

[StevieR]

Well, the ideal solution would probably be a compact line-array but you have already had to rule out anything flown. There are some line-array systems which can be ground stacked (can't remember which off the top of my head) and this may be an option which will not produce too much visual impact.

 

Another option that I have used at stadium style events, is to use short stacks of boxes combining a sub with a medium/long-throw unit on the top angled upwards. Several of these stacks are distributed along the front of the seating area to ensure even coverage. As the boxes are only stacked two high the sight lines are not affected too much. You could even set this up as a kind-of ground-stacked, central cluster.

 

HTH

 

Steve

 

BTW - a 45deg angle on the seating is pretty damn steep! Hope they're providing climbing equipment! B-)

[Chris Hinds]

I would suggest since flying is out then a line array should also be excluded from being effective or appropriate. If you could use freestanding towers and hang the arrays of them then that's an avenue that's opened up and I'd speak to Mark Payne about some D&B Q1 and his Mobiletech towers to hang it off. If you really must groundstack I'd look at Turbosound Aspect in a 3x2 configuration to get horizontal and vertical coverage, with appropriate levels of Subs for your material (propably 3 per side).

 

Regards

 

Chris

[soundworxeng]

Basicly its an outdoor opera set up,,with a large stage 34x15x1.5meters high and placed infront of the stage at ground level is the full orchestra set up .The orchestra will be fully miced so will be the 16 solo singers on stage.There is no roof and due to winds hanging a pa system with cranes is causing trouble as anchoring is a problem.

[Chubby]

Let's just remember that there is always more than one way to skin a cat and lot's of people who can help you do it.

Couple of points of interest when it comes to designing and implementing a system for outdoor orchestral events.

 

1. How are you going to Mic the strings - Close micing using DPA's,Accousound's or other bug's / Overhead mic's both can work well.

 

3. Budget - often a larger system featuring delay speaker positions will provide greater gain before feedback and even coverage but will cost more than a ground supported/ stacked left right line array solution which may look neater and cost less.

 

4. Location - Is there a supplier local to the event ? have they had experience providing for this type of event.

 

I have had good experiences with several solutions ranging from star hires old turbo rig with overhead mic's though to flown V-Dosc with 40 odd DPA 4061's on all the strings.

The Bug mic's always work better outdoors IMHO and we will often implement a second mixer on / back stage to submix these mic's into a sensible amount of channels (sections) for the FOH engineer to handle and quite often these mic's a Y-corded together in pairs to keep the sub mixer to a reasonable size.

 

The vocal element of the opera is another factor in designing and implementing the system. I would also recomend that you have a score reader at front of house working with the mix engineer balancing the vocal mic's.

My Friend Richard Sharret often mixes these type of show's and also does west-end show's if you would like his contact details please PM me.

 

A couple of companies which have experience doing this are

System Sound (prom's in the park - hyde park), Soundhire (three tennors etc..), RG Jones and Brit Row.

Most of these companies will use the same crew who have lot's of experiance doing larger outdoor clasicials. However it will always come down to budget unless you have a wealthy corperate sponsor who is an opera buff :-)

 

I'm off to Leed castle (Kent !) in a week or so to do some big outdoor show's for Rg Jones and I will post some pictures and info on their chosen solution.

 

Sound for outdoor classicals can be hard work but also a very rewarding way to spend a summers evening.

Hope it goes well

 

Mark

MIAudio.co.uk

[soundworxeng]

Thanx everyone for your advice and help,basicly the set up is on the island of cyprus.The orchestra have their own mic system and console all they require is the pa system.There is not a large budget for it just 1000 pounds per performance for one rehersal and two shows .alltogether 3 days.Sound systems available on the island that I can dry hire is .A jbl vertec system 4880,nexo alpha e ,nexo g line array,r&h line array,a turbosound floodlight system and a martin audio wavefront and a martin audio line array.a kudo ,or a nexo ps15 set up. the final lay out is a trapezoidal seating set up 22 rows with around 2500 seats in 22 rows and the first row of seating is 8 meters from the first row of seats . the production does not want a flown system so a .the two options they have asked for are.A a left and right ground stack on the stage which will be basicly behined the orchestra .and the second option is a a suroound set up on the ground around the perimeter area of the orchestra .at a maximum height of 1.5 meters each stack so as not to obstruct sight lines.

[Chris Hinds]

A jbl vertec system 4880,nexo alpha e ,nexo g line array,r&h line array,a turbosound floodlight system and a martin audio wavefront and a martin audio line array.a kudo ,or a nexo ps15 set up.

All of these could be suitable with the following:

1. Experience

2. A venue visit

3. Appropriate system design.

 

For a £1k budget your choices drop to AlphaE, Floodlight, Wavefront and PS15s. The last can be discounted as inappropriate for the size. Hire someone who knows what to do - it will be a better use of part of the money. In all honesty from the descriptions you have mentioned thus far it sounds like a substantial system is needed, and trying a line array without knowledge will only cause you more problems and you'll be disappointed with the results.

 

Regards

 

Chris

[Rob_Beech]

quite often these mic's a Y-corded together in pairs to keep the sub mixer to a reasonable size.

 

Gulp!

I've probably got the wrong end of the stick here, but surely that will cause even more issues.

 

 

Rob

[Mark Payne]

Hi Rob,

 

Well, I do this sometimes also. The nice thing about orchs is that you dont have to try too hard. They are balanced by nature. The conductor "provides" the mix. If you Y combine pairs of matched condensors and get them equidistant from the action you can bring them up in pairs no problem.

 

We have loads of Shure KSM 137s for this game.

 

Mark

 

quite often these mic's a Y-corded together in pairs to keep the sub mixer to a reasonable size.

 

Gulp!

I've probably got the wrong end of the stick here, but surely that will cause even more issues.

 

 

Rob

 

 

Feel free to PM me or call me at the office for a chat of you need to.

 

A "boxes on sticks" soloution may work here with some front fill for the 8M worth of people on the floor and a perimeter of boxes feeding up and into the bleachers. In my scan read of you post I see mention of PS15s... they will do the trick.

 

Hmm 22 rows of bleachers... that is high! Better get some height into the stands.

 

I think you have realised that the "main PA" approach (lincluding line array) will only work if you can get height into it..... Ideally in the 6-8M range (top boxes). As this event sounds line it is "in the half round" a wider cluster config system may be better. LA is not always the way. Fashion smashion.

 

I'm up for a gig in cyprus ;-) Right now the idea of chillin on a boat shipping some d&b out to you sounds sweet. Call me of you have need. I think we may have a financial interface problem howerver!

 

Peace

 

Mark

[Rob_Beech]

Mark,

 

It was more of an impedance issue, than a mix issue I was thinking of but I'm sure its possible. Well its clearly possible as both you and the OP have done it.

 

Speaking as a Martin Wavefront user, it may do the job, it would be cheaper than a line array and there is no question about its quality. But once again you need that height. It would also depend on what models were being used. W8 and W8C are the more suited cabinets here. maybe W1 or W2 as front fills.

I'm probably as bad (probably good is a better word) as Mark when it comes to wanting speakers higher!

 

 

Rob

[soundworxeng]

Thanx guys ,all advice and help is greatly apreciated.

 

cheers

stefano

[Bobbsy]

FWIW, I seem to recall that a couple of years back AudioMedia magazine did an article about a production of "Grease" happening in a Cypriot amphitheatre that sounds a lot like your venue. It gave the name of the local sound company that provided a lot of the gear and some names of people etc. I don't know if back copies are available in print or online, but it might be worth doing some digging.

 

Bob