The wrong in house PA will affect your profitability.

[drowner77]

I had a conversation with the owner of a Holiday park the other night. Everything in this park is top shelf except the sound system.

 

Like many other parks who seem to allow their accountants to determine what system they have or how much to spend, this place had large Peavey speakers, pweored by one eccler 1400 and an ancient Peeavy amp. They also had a Spirit board that seemed almost new.

 

Also, they have the ents staff, 18 yr olds with no experience at all. In fact, the girls there told me that the reverb was not working and had not been working since the board has been new and that the High "nobby" made the sound like an oat meal box or really muffly.

 

It turned out that they did not know that there was a knob for the effect on each channel and the High "nobby" was actually the sweepable mid.

 

 

I explained to the owner that having a crap system will drive people from the bar earlier than they would normally leave because the sound makes them tired. He said to me that people don't know the difference and that he cannot see paying £5000 or more for a sound system.

 

I think that he is losing money that he is not even aware he is losing what with the constant break down of gear, there is always something wrong with his system, he is driving people from the bar with his awaful sound system, he is throwing money away hiring entertainers and not giving them the tools to do the job to the best of their ability.

 

Am I wrong thinking this or is it good business sense to have a live venue and have a low end system?

[Bobbsy]

A very good question.

 

Some years back I came across an academic paper that correlated audio and video quality in television programmes with the audience reaction to those programmes.

 

To sum up many thousands of words, it seemed that, although the audience claimed not to be aware of subtle differences in picture and sound quality, in fact they gravitated towards programmes shot and edited with broadcast quality gear as opposed to high-end prosumer. Many years ago, in a previous career, this was very useful in a capex meeting with my boss. When he asked "how high a tech quality do we need" I was able to answer with confidence "ten percent better than our competitors...if we're smart".

 

I don't know if a similar study has ever been done dealing purely with sound, but I'd certainly be willing to bet that they'd be far more likely to say "good show" if the sound quality was better, even if the rest of the performance was the same. As you say, bad sound is physically tiring and, even if the audience isn't aware that's the reason, I could see it driving them away.

 

Alas, this is only theory right now. I did a bit of Googling and so far haven't come up with any actual facts to support this idea. The closest I've found so far is: http://www.kent.ac.uk/sdfva/sound-journal/forrester001.html but it's a bit general and not enough to support your expenditure request! You've got me interested though, so I'll keep looking.

 

Bob

[back_ache]

It is really frustrating, we visited a site yesterday to talk through our quote. The place was obvoiusly expensive to buy, had an expensive refit and lighting rig.

 

We got in here and the owner saying "what do you think of using these (low end disco) amplifiers" from a pub I used to own ?

 

Then he start trying to cut the quote down saying "I've been in the nightclub business for (blah blah) years"

 

Then he came up with the classic one-liner "The DJ's will never take the volume higher than a background level"

 

arrrggghhh!!!!!!!!

 

It's makes you want to overquote just so they can cut you down the what you have quoted for in the first place!

 

double arrgghhh!!

[drowner77]

No offence meant to our lampy friends, but having a kick ass lighting rig will not make up for crap sound. But I have seen it too, Backache, where places will fork out on lighting and skimp on sound. The stupidity of it astounds!

[Chris Hinds]

If it's a live venue it needs a setup that is on par with the level of acts playing there, anything less and you'll lose acts, which will lose you the additional draw those acts have, and eventually you get to the situation where you have a pub with a stage not a live music venue. If that selection of acts includes people who are touring regionally in 500-1000 venues then you need a system that supports that, which means rider acceptable, even coverage and tour quality gear that can take the knocks. If you have local bands playing but 'good' local bands with a strong following you can get away perhaps with a system bought from an advertiser in Music Mart. If you just have jonny from round the corner with his dad and three mates who love them then a cobbled together system is probably fine, the rest of the pub would prefer they couldn't hear.

 

People remember bad sound, they never remember good sound, therefore they never remember good sound and so they tend to blame the people in charge if it sounds bad, rather than realising a shortfall in the equipment. Of course the other side of the coin is that a good engineer can usually do pretty well on a poor system, but of course good engineers tend to move on up the food chain to work with bigger and better acts and better gear. In real terms nobody is going to be able to tell if I mixed the show on a Soundcraft K2 or a Midas Heritage 3000. One might well be that much better for the show though with automation, VCAs and so on, however I doubt any audience member comes in, even an experience tech and says 'ah that sounds good, he must be using a Midas'. More likely the comment is 'ah that sounds good, the engineer is doing a good job'.

 

Regards

 

Chris

[Rob_Beech]

As has been mentioned before. As crew and engineers we are not supposed to be noticed.

We listen to the sound in alot of detail, and can pick out the smallest issues with it and if its our job to, alter it.

A general member of the public will notice feedback, horrible distorted sound, too loud, too quiet, too much bass, and will say the sound is crap.

If the sound is good they dont notice anything.

IF They dont even know you are doing your job, you've done a good job.

 

The same applies to lighting although there probably aren't as many audience complaints. (can't see people, too many lights pointing back too much going on) thats about it.

 

As a sound engineer its difficult to go into a venue when I'm not working and not listen to the sound in detail.

Bad sound is something that gets on my nerves, but as an engineer and a musician I can usually tell WHY the sound is bad. I'll look at the gear being used and this may provide the limitations, I'll also listen to the band from a musicians point of view. More often than not its the source material that causes the problems.

 

 

Rob

[Just Some Bloke]

... the girls there told me that the reverb was not working and had not been working since the board has been new and that the High "nobby" made the sound like an oat meal box or really muffly.

 

It turned out that they did not know that there was a knob for the effect on each channel and the High "nobby" was actually the sweepable mid.

 

The trouble is that, even with a really good system, the wrong person engineering and it can sound crap no matter how much you spent on kit. With staff like those you spoke to, would top quality kit make that much difference? Ideally, they need to buy good kit and employ good staff who know how to use it.

[drowner77]

Agreed. Blokey. Most of the places I play --holiday parks during the summer-- have 18 year old "Jazz Hands" types doing "The sound." I cannot tell you how many times my blood runs cold when one of them comes up to me and says either "I'm good at sound" or "Do you want to tell me what you want or do you want to just leave it to me.

[Rob_Beech]

With all due respect to them, it is tempting to just say. I'll leave it up to you and see the results.

 

Early days with my band (Beatles tribute) I'd leave the lighting up to them. Do something that fits wih the music. I hardly think that strobes were a key favourite in Shea stadium.

 

Rob

[Jivemaster]

The best system will be defeated by operators like that. Punters do vote with their feet if they dont like the sound. They say "it's too loud" when they mean Its badly distorted. Few punters know (or care ) what is wrong they just dont stay.

 

However the system is likely to be adequate, but not without the skill of control that it needs.

 

Really a mark up sheet for all controls is the first start, followed by a tech who really can do sound.

[drowner77]

I have also heard this pearl "We bought this small Peavey system because we did not want it to be too loud." ARGGGHH!!

 

Indeed, someone that knows how to engineer is a must, but I must say, JIvemaster, everytime I see a Peavy Rig in a venue I wither..

 

I hate peavey, I really do.

[paulears]

Nothing you can say or write down will convince him. What you do is put in a proper system for just one evening and see if he can hear the difference. If he says wow - and other people say the same, then you may find that price is no longer an issue. If he truly can't hear it, give up because you won't convince him. I put a hire system in for two shows at a big venue - similar kind of place, but holding around 1000 people. The owner asked for a bigger one, I was a bit surprised because it was in truth a bit over spec'd. What he meant was it didn'tlook impressive enough - LOOK, not sound! This, I really believe is why so many of these places have big peavy systems - the owners see them and mistake size and quantity for quality.

 

So - stick a system in and see if the difference is audible to the person who pays the bill! I can't pretend this has worked every time - but if it is expensive and doesn't offer him any perceived value for money - it's a non-starter.

[Jivemaster]

Look at a digital mixer with a granny button or some global presets for show types. At least half the problem can be solved by taking incompetent operators OUT.

[Guest lightnix]

No offence meant to our lampy friends, but having a kick ass lighting rig will not make up for crap sound...

You are so right.

 

In fact, I'll bet money that I can make / keep the dance floor just as much of a punter-free zone with my lighting, as you can with your sound :P :) :)

[Panzerman]

So - stick a system in and see if the difference is audible to the person who pays the bill! I can't pretend this has worked every time

 

It is definitely the way to go if you are competing with a principal who says "I've been in this game for......" (I know him, I really do!!), especially if he has a DJ leaning over his shoulder with a Skytronic catalogue showing him what fantastic stuff he can get, reet cheap. Even if you don't get the job initially, once they hear something good, it will be imprinted in their mind and you might get the call 6 months down the line when their Chinese tat has caught fire.

Don't worry if you haven't got the kit yourself - ring round some of the distributors. In my experience, they'll be only too happy to send a rep(tile) with a van load of kit to show it off at the venue. Also then, you both have a declared interest, so when matey thinks he's clever and rings them direct for a better deal, they should tell him to go through you.

 

Sometimes better to walk away from a job when they are deadset on setting unrealistic budgets - from a business point of view, the venue won't explain that the sound (and trade) is dismal because of poor kit, budget or management decisions. It will be down to the crap sound system that YOU sold them. Be assured their competitors won't know what kit is in the venue, but they WILL know that you are the chap who put it in there, so don't expect any calls from them either!!