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Do we really need Graphic equalisers at all?


rinkydinkron

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Give me a system that sets itself up any day so that we can then concentrate on people who can actually mix the show rather than just set up the system.

 

:)

 

I wonder though.

 

If you think about it, while not "a system that sets itself up" things like SMAART are tools that, in theory, let you tune your system in whatever location you're working. However, as much as it can make things "flat", very often the sound is disappointing and it takes a trained set of ears to make things right.

 

Could a fully automatic system, at least one using any existing technology, do any better?

 

Bob

 

That would be the beatuty of a fully automated system. It wouldn't set itself up to be flat, rather to User Presets. Just as we all play our favourite tracks of soundcheck music and use that to get the final settings right, so the system would learn how you like it to sound and make it sound that way. It could even play your favourite track for you and change its own settings to get it sounding the way you had it last time.

 

Someone comes in and delivers the equipment, connecting all the right bits together, then they set it going on its soundcheck. While it's doing that monitors and mics are set up up on stage, by which time the system has set itself up. Now you set it going on the monitors while you have a tea break. Refreshed, you come along and start the soundcheck, just thinking about making the instruments and voices sound good, not having to worry about the room.

 

Sound engineering finally gets to be about mixing.

 

:)

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The Quote was....

Sound engineering finally gets to be about mixing.

.... Well I know I might attract some flack here but.....

 

Sound engineering is about sound engineering. Mixing can be done in your bedroom in your cans. Anyone can mix. Not all of us can engineer......

I have a new phone, it has a game on it where you mix.

 

.... dive dive dive... the depth charges are comming!

 

Mark

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Anyone can mix.

 

Everyone THINKS they can mix! That's the trouble. Very few are any good at it.

 

When I take a course on mixing sound in theatres (which I do every so often) I always begin by saying "we'e going to start by addresing the most important piece of kit you'll be working with - what's that?" Invariably the answer comes back "mixer". No. "Speakers?" No "mics?" No [etc.] Correct answer? Your ears.

 

If you can't hear whether the mix is right or not then you can't mix - and you'd be amazed how many people can't!

 

You can learn how to put a system togther from a book. You can learn how to play white noise, watch a readout and alter a graphic accordingly to make a nice flat response. All of these anyone can do if they just take the trouble to read the books and act as they say. But mixing a piece of musical theatre with a 20 piece band, 8 principals and another 12 in the ensemble all playing/singing live with a dep in on second trumpet, the leading lady on holiday and being replaced by her understudy plus another principal who's losing her voice and needing extra help and another who's gone down with the flu and being replaced by one of the ensemble who, in turn, is being replaced by a swing - that's not something you can learn from a book! You can either hear and fix the differences or you can't.

 

P.S. Of course, I was being a bit facetious when I put the line in about sound engineering fianlly being about mixing. Truth is there are two jobs here - one for those interested in the science of it and one for those interested in the artistic side. I recon you could get a computer to do the first bit eventually, but I can't see a computer ever replacing the person doing the mixing. No great problem here as the scientific types could all work in R&D making the computer software better and better. Win/win. :unsure:

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If you can't hear whether the mix is right or not then you can't mix

 

Do be careful.

 

I think I understand what you are trying to say but it could be taken as a general statement.

At the simplest end of the scale, how many of us have put up with mixing FOH from stage left/right. or from worse positions.

You can't directly hear the mix, but a good engineer can compare the sound out front to what they hear in the mix position and adjust as necessary, making a few visits out front is encouraged, sometimes this isn't even possible.

In this case, you can't hear whether the mix is right or not, but you can mix!

On the other end of the scale, hearing loss, be it temporary or permenant that hasn't been present from birth does not need to cause any problems with mixing. The same applies.

I fully agree with the rest of the post. particularly the artistic part. You'll find an engineer who plays an instrument or understands music theory will mix differently to one that doesn't. Neither mix is better than the other, neither mix is classed right or wrong, good or bad, they are however different.

 

 

Rob

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There are two issues here - setting up the system and then operating it during the gig.

 

As far as setting up goes, I think graphic equalisers are a very useful tool since every performance space is different and it's handy to set up your system with a flat response as a starting point, especially with a touring rig. I'm a particular fan of Behringer's Ultracurve here, using it with a reference mic in auto-eq mode can often pinpoint resonant and dead bands and compensate accordingly - and the limiter and feedback eliminators are a handy bonus. I know some people don't like Behringer's kit, but I've always found it works OK. Once the setup is done, I'd then leave the graphic alone.

 

Once it gets on to the live mix, there's no substitute for skill - but I've lost count of the number of gigs I've been to where the mix sounds awful - usually bacause the HF is overboosted, often followed by the overall level being steadily raised during the performance. Why? because some sound engineers are partially deaf! In particular, HF hearing response declines rapidly with age - and we're not talking bus pass and zimmer frame here, anyone over 25 will have started to lose HF hearing and it'll be well down by age 45. Problem is, this creates a vicious circle, where the poor engineering causes noise-induced hearing damage to the audience that replicates the age-induced damage suffered by the engineer - and also makes the engineer's hearing problem worse at the same time.

 

Want to do a self-test on this? Just get hold of Alan Parson's Sound Check CD and see how far your hearing extends!

 

And if you work as a sound engineer, you do get an annual hearing check - don't you?

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Sorry Green but I am going to have to disagree.

 

It takes me a whole day to teach this sort of thing out of people.

What is flat? What does that mean?

Graphics rarely fix room nodes.

Look with the precision of 1/24th octive and you begin to get it. A 1/3rd octave Eq is like using a sledgehammer to fix a TV.

 

Most eq nodes are comb filter reflection orientated or due to intersystem comb filtering. You cannot fix this with eq.

 

Most people don't even get why they should only eq one half of the PA at a time (then copy across). Do you do our "auto eq" with the whole rig or just one side? How many listening positions do you EQ to... 1? 100?

 

Peace

 

M

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hearing in the average person certainly declines as you say, Green - but that is assuming the young people haven't already damaged their hearing. Mine (in the 40's group) certainly has dropped, BUT I have lost count of the younger people who can't hear what I can - walkman damage maybe?

 

As we're talking about graphics - pull all the faders down, run white noise through it then apply full boost at the very top, then work down adding each 1/3 octave as you go. It's fun to see how the very top octave doesn't really seem to matter that much - and even when you can hear it, it often doesn't actually sound that nice when compared to a decent hi-fi. I'm pretty much of the opinion that not a great deal of useful content, PA wise happens above 15-16K. I'm not saying that it isn't important, just not essential.

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Hi,

 

I have to agree with Mark. I went and spent a week on the Meyer SIMM school a few years ago. Before touching any EQ, you begin to realise that good system design and proper time alignment are fundamental to any PA system worth it's salt.

 

On Professional Shows you won't see any "Auto EQ" Magic boxes, Most people are using SMAART or SIMM which are far more involved than a normal RTA and willl give you information on the time or phase dimension which is critical. Only after taking a number of readings around the venue can you begin to make some decisions about the EQ.

 

Personally I am a big fan of parametric EQ as you can notch these in really tight on probelm frequencies instead of butchering the Spectrum with a 1/3 octave graphic.

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A 1/3rd octave Eq is like using a sledgehammer to fix a TV.

Mark

 

Sometimes you just gotta run with what you got...

 

I entirely agree that you can't get a perfect result with a graphic - but you can eliminate obvious resonances - e.g. bits of the lighting rig and large doors - quickly and easily. Also, the 'Auto-eq' process is only a starting point, some manual intervention to 'clean up' the curve is always needed. But when your setup time is limited, e.g half an hour, it's a very useful tool.

 

Quite frankly, when you've got several Kw of sound in a small space like a club, subtleties like room nodes tend to get lost in the crowd, but in any case this sort of problem is mostly to do with speaker placement/signal timing and is much harder to eq-out.

 

I've also found that the Ultracurve's remote control facility via Midi can be handy when you're dealing with irresponsible DJ's - they turn it up, I turn it down...

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I haven't done Mark's acoustics course (yet!) but my method usually goes something along the lines of getting the system placement right first, then diddling with gains on each band pass of the DSP to get the system sounding like I want, then the EQ is a very last resort, and I'll use the Parametric EQ on the input of the DSP rather than a graphic if I can. Through well far too many TF readings taken in one venue with a fixed system, the DSPs now have two tiny (1/12th Oct) cuts of 2dB logged in them and I mix with the FOH EQ in bypass. Invariably I've had guest engineers come in and hack the graphic to bits (BSS 960) and then complain the system sounds bad. I hit the bypass button and they agree it sounds better. The best thing about having the tools is not having to use them... My current preference for playing with a graphic is to create a poormans DPR901 by boosting the frequencies causing me issues in the sidechain by 6dB+ so that the comp clamps down on them first...

 

Regards

 

Chris

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Quite frankly, when you've got several Kw of sound in a small space like a club, subtleties like room nodes tend to get lost in the crowd
Just a short pedantic comment....

 

A room Mode is defined as "The acoustic resonances (or standing waves) in a room (or any enclosed space) caused by parallel surfaces. It is the dimensional resonance of a room, where the distance between the walls equals half the wavelength of the lowest resonant frequency (and resonates at all harmonic frequencies above it). Room modes create uneven sound distribution throughout a room, with alternating louder and quieter spots". (rane.com)

 

Although closely related, Nodes are a point of minimum air pressure variation (although the air displacement will be at at a maximum).

 

Also, the size of the sound system does not alter the acoustics of the venue (unless it changes it structurally!)...

 

Oh well.. lunch is over... back to marking ;-)

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Also, the size of the sound system does not alter the acoustics of the venue (unless it changes it structurally!)...

 

With a small sound system, resonance is not a problem / noticable. However, the louder the PA the more certain things in the room will start to make their own, resonant contribution to the sound - so a bigger sound system does alter the room's acoustics! (does resonance count as structural alteration?)

 

good system design and proper time alignment are fundamental to any PA system worth it's salt

 

Fine for a permanent install where you can fit the system to the room's acoustics - and have time to do it. Not so easy for a touring rig that might be in a pub back room one day, an old cinema the next, a sports hall the following...

 

...pedantic

(Node/Mode/Schmode!! - you knew what I meant!! :) )

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