randomtom Posted May 25, 2006 Share Posted May 25, 2006 Ok, so I need to hire 16 sennhesier G2 evo's with MKE-2's and I've already got some good prices on that (less than half the price of London from Edinborough inc courier) Problem is I've only ever used the public frequencies before and JFMG are confusing me. I can't seem to figure out how many of there 12.5kHz bandwidth alocation units I need based on the PDF's at Sennheiser site. I emailed them and they have qouted me £576 without telling me what for or how they got to that figure. It seems like 16x£36 to me which means they are giving me 200kHz per mic. Is that really how much I should be paying for a bit of paper to say the kit won't interfear with anyone? Seems a bit harsh to me, thats half the cost of the radio's themselves. Also, the site is huge, only used by us and no other radio's on it. It's also a local council funded free event with a tight budget and it seems JFMG are strangling it at that price. Thanks in advance for your comments/experiances. Tom AllenTalon Event Services (still learning yet!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulears Posted May 25, 2006 Share Posted May 25, 2006 You aren't buying a licence that gives you any real protection from interference - same as buying your tv licence gives you any guarantee that eastenders will be interesting. You are buying a licence that is required by law to use the equipment. The current Government thinking is that users pay for the tiny bit of bandwidth they use. The licence does give you an element of protection, as in you can wave your licence at people annoying you who don't have one. The reality is that if the unlicenced user refuses to turn off, there isn't a lot you can do. Expecting the local police to do anything isn't reasonable. The Government did have an interference specialist department, the Radio Interference Service, but I wouldn't expect them to be able to tackle on-off problems like this. I guess that as long as somebody has the licence that's fine. JFMG's responsibility for the future management of the radio microphone spectrum is ceasing soon - so I can't imagine they are interested in looking into the licence situation that closely, anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Lewis Posted May 25, 2006 Share Posted May 25, 2006 Tom, Can't the hire company sort this out for you? I would have thought that a firm that has 16 G2s would at least have a shared licence? This is only £75 a year! If you are on a large site (and believe that you won't get interference), can't you use three or four units in the 863-865 free to use spectrum plus up to 14 in the shared spectrum? Naturally, you won't get the same frequency guarantee as you would with co-ordinated frequencies, but you imply this isn't a problem.... Curious....! Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randomtom Posted May 25, 2006 Author Share Posted May 25, 2006 paulears, So not only is it to expensive, it doesn't protect me either. Great.... The more I read about it, it seems I might even be able to fit 16 G2's into the free spectrum? Any got experiance of this? I am willing to offer a reward to anyone who can get me out of this fix. We need the mic's but the licence at £576 has pushed me over budget. Tom Allen Tom, Can't the hire company sort this out for you? I would have thought that a firm that has 16 G2s would at least have a shared licence? This is only £75 a year! If you are on a large site (and believe that you won't get interference), can't you use three or four units in the 863-865 free to use spectrum plus up to 14 in the shared spectrum? Naturally, you won't get the same frequency guarantee as you would with co-ordinated frequencies, but you imply this isn't a problem.... Curious....! SimonWell I shopped around for the cheapest hire company, they sent the follwing text to JFMG: we will need 16 frequencies from the first 2 banks of 20 frequencies in the attached list. I will send through the client details as soon as I have them (don't have attachments) They replied: I have reserved 16 frequencies as per your request for the pre-set frequency banks for the equipment you intend to use. I can confirm that the cost will be £576.00 total. So I take it the hire company don't have a licence. Why would it cost so much more then if you are suggesting £75 a year? Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Lewis Posted May 25, 2006 Share Posted May 25, 2006 The more I read about it, it seems I might even be able to fit 16 G2's into the free spectrum? Any got experiance of this? Typically only three or four channels will fit between 863 and 865. You can be assigned up to 14 shared frequencies in Channel 69. Depending on whether you are using series 100, 300 or 500 will determine the number of simultaneous systems. I'd check with Sennheiser.... From memory, the 100 series allows 4 channels, 300 allows 8 channels and the 500 allows 20.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy_s Posted May 25, 2006 Share Posted May 25, 2006 I've never hired radio mics and then had to pay for the license on top - perhaps the moral is don't necessarily go for the cheapest quote..... (in fact, when I've loaned out the ones we own, (a very rare occurance, before I get inundated with requests.....), I simply give the borrower a photocopy of the form which came with our licence for them to fill in with their details. All 8 of ours are channel 69, and it's not a venue - specific licence. We pay £75 a year currently Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevieR Posted May 25, 2006 Share Posted May 25, 2006 Hi Tom, We know quite a bit about this as we hire out the Sennheiser kit too. Essentially, you can use up to 8 frequencies within each TV band - i.e. 8 from channel 69 and then another 8 from channel 67 for example. With the Evolution systems, you should not use more the 8 units per band or you may risk intermod problems (although I have managed to get 10 in on a couple of occasions.) More expensive systems can use more frequencies per band as they have better frequency tolerances. Whichever hire company you are getting these from should have a license for channel 69 that gets assigned to you for the hire period. That is 8 frequencies covered so what you now need is the other 8. Best thing to do is to ask JFMG for a license for a whole channel (i.e. 67 or 68) This means that all frequencies within that block will be available to you. This is cheaper than licensing individual frequencies which may explain the price quoted before. Two caveats to this, though - The licenses for channel 67 and 68 are fixed site and if you are going to be moving locations during the hire period you will need multiple licenses for the different locations. Again, JFMG should be able to work out the best deal. - In London, space in the channel 67 and 68 bands may be very limited. JFMG will be able to confirm if you can get a block or not. If they can only assign individual frequencies then it will cost more. another option is to look at hiring alternative mic systems that can work in other tv channels and see if you can get a block there. Anyway, hope this answers things better. Feel free to PM me for further info. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbsy Posted May 25, 2006 Share Posted May 25, 2006 Certainly you won't get 14 channels in free spectrum. Two-four would be the absolutely maximum. Next to the free spectrum, however, is the "shared" frequencies. This is a total of 14 frequencies on the lower portion of channel 69, just below the free spectrum. As Simon says, how many you can use will depend on the quality of the systems you're renting and you'll have to speak to Sennheiser for details. I know that with my old Sony "Freedom" mics I could use 12 of the 14 without any interference/intermod problems, but I have a feeling Simon is right about Sennheiser not allowing as many. One thing in this story sticks out though. By far the most normal way for radio mic rental to work is for the hire company to take care of licencing and pass you a copy of the licence specifying the location(s) and dates you propose to use the mics. Indeed, a form for passing on the licence during hire was part of the paperwork I received from JFMG last time I owned mics. Perhaps the lack of this service is the reason for the cheap deal you're getting? Alas, Paulears is right about JFMG. They used to be great to work with and go out of their way to be helpful. However, all this has changed now that they know their future is limited. Another "own goal" for the government I fear. Bob Edit: sheesh...spend 3 minutes typing a post and two others get in before you! At least we're all largely in agreement! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randomtom Posted May 25, 2006 Author Share Posted May 25, 2006 Thanks to all of you for your comments. With regards to JFMG pricing. ( http://www.jfmg.co.uk/JFMGECOM/JFMG_WebFra...nformation.aspx )Does the very bottom line of the table suggest it should cost just £48 per channel? That makes £192 for 2 channels for 96 hours in my book. Is this what I should be asking for? I tried calling them and got no answer three times :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ynot Posted May 25, 2006 Share Posted May 25, 2006 Tom, I personally would go back FIRST THING to the hire company and ask what licence THEY have for the mics they supply. If the answer is 'none' then that's where you're cheap quote is coming from. Most hire companies I've dealt with have a licence-inclusive fee, as most hirers will only need the kit for short durations, and as such it's often more economic as a whole to simply add a bit to each unit's hire to cover the percentage of an annual licence. We have 10 Sennheisers in the theatre, and these occasionally go out on hire when not in use, and the only thing I need to do in that case is complete a form (already mentioned above as coming with the licence) stating that the mics will be covered by our documentation. All it is is a single sheet with our info detailed, the frequencies allowed and the user's details. Our licence, by the way, costs us £135 for 2 years and includes 14 200Khz channels twixt 854.9 and 861.75MHzand are in the shared frequency band. Hope this helps.Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulears Posted May 25, 2006 Share Posted May 25, 2006 Looking back through my old paperwork shows £145/2 yrs - 14 channels, similar to Tony's and seems the popular one, although I note that this phrase is in nice big letters: These frequencies are SHARED with other licenced users WITHOUT PRIORITY. I like the way they emphasise without priority- so effectively, if two people interfere with each other, tough - sort it out your self! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbsy Posted May 25, 2006 Share Posted May 25, 2006 ....adding a "just to be clear" to Paulears post.... The licence is for 14 frequencies but it takes very good hardware to be able to use all 14 simultaneously without intermod problems. Contact the radio mic manufacturer for details of the system you're using. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Tallent Posted May 25, 2006 Share Posted May 25, 2006 Just to play devil's advocate here, why should the hire company hold and pay for the licence ? After all, from a legal standpoint, its the user that has to be licenced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulears Posted May 25, 2006 Share Posted May 25, 2006 One of my ex-clients got a better rate from someone else, then found out about the licence - making the deal a lot less attractive. The trouble is, now they have one for two years, why come back? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbsy Posted May 25, 2006 Share Posted May 25, 2006 Just to play devil's advocate here, why should the hire company hold and pay for the licence ? After all, from a legal standpoint, its the user that has to be licenced. Easy answer. For the Channel 69 shared frequencies which most rented mics are on, it's an annual licence at about £75 a year or £145 for 2 years. Since most people hiring only want a week or two, it makes far more sense for the hire company to pay once and split the cost over all the annual rentals. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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