Lighting for a gig on distributed DVD's

[Jamtastic3]

Ello all,

Well to be honest I'm not sure how to exactly explain this as I don't really know the area of what I'm talking about.

Basically, last year I did some lighting for a big ska concert that was filmed and recorded, ready for a DVD launch last week. It was only until it was played that the sound engineer asked if I had done the lighting for it. He then said something to do with having rights to some kind of money relating to the DVD sales as I had done services towards the creation of the DVD (lighting).

Now I don't know how else to expalin it, but does anyone really understand what I am on about? I just thought I'd ask as it interest me to find out if I have anything to go by as such.

 

Thanks

[mac.calder]

It depends on the piece of paper you signed - you did sign a contract didn't you.

 

If there was no mention of the DVD either being recorded or made, and also no mention of your 'rights' to the work, you may cetainly have a case. A lot will depend on the wording. Best bet, if you wish to persue it, either talk to your unions legal department, or get yourself a lawyer.

[Rob]

I had a similar situation when a stage show was filmed for DVD release. This was not something that had ever been contractually agreed at the outset of the tour and BECTU advised us that we were due some remuneration. The production company did pay up after some argy-bargy, although it was a minimal amount.

 

If you knew from the outset that the concert was for distribution, you might struggle to get anything after the event, but you never know!

[Jamtastic3]

Well, initially there was no contract as such - it was just a case of 'another gig night to light' and I hadn't been told anything about filming or realising they had as many cameras (your average mini DV's hand held by joe bloggs in the crowd) being used for the recording. I've lookd at the credits and my name isn't there - instead it's someone elses! However the venue I work in/for has been mentioned ('special thanks to everyone at ......')

[DC FX]

Hate to be negative but you've got no chance!!

 

If you do wish to pursue it, it will be months of phone calls and union meetings, paperwork etc, et, etc....

and what you get out really won't be worth alot, (unless it was U2 or Coldplay....)

 

If I was you I'd put it down to experience and make sure you have everything tied up before you start work next time.

 

 

Sorry.....

[paulears]

My view would be this. If you got paid to light the show, then if you didn't spot the cameras on the night, they may argue that you were not the designer, but just an operator - you may pursuade them something is owing if the design element can be proven, However, if your name is missing and somebody else is getting the credit, then this may be more useful. Are you an ALD member, or Bectu or some organisation like that? Passing off your work as his, the credited LD may be in trouble - especially if you didn't even know he was there.

 

Your profile says lighting engineer at an entertainment venue. If they pay you to do this, and basically you walk in the door and do it - then I suspect you can't really claim to be the LD. The venue, if they charged the band, would almost certainly 'give away' your contribution to the show.

 

So, my gut reaction is that you won't get anywhere with this one, but a good lesson for the future.

[mac.calder]

The thing you have not really said is whether you sat down and actually DESIGNED the show, or whether you followed instructions, hung the lanterns, and operated - two separate kettles of fish. It would help if you mentioned exactly what you did.

 

As pauleers noted, you are a tech at a venue - that works against you, as the employment contract at most venues is 'buy out', meaning that any work and design you actually do is property of the venue and not you. It is a bit like working for a R&D firm, if someone there designs something, the COMPANY makes the revenue from the patents etc, not the designer. The only way you can make money for those sorts of things when under the employ of a buy out contract is to have your employer sign a document handing back the rights to the work - trust me, it won't happen. That said, if your venue did not know about the recording, they could probably claim some money from them (and maybe give you a pay rise )

 

Now you said there was no contract really... I am 99% sure there would be one between the venue and the band and I gather there is also a contract between you and the venue. If not, someone really needs to look at their SOP. #1 rule of business - get everything in writing.

[Nick512]

In My Experiance there are basically two ways in which a live lighting show is approached by production company / band.

 

1. is a "Buy Out" where the LD and/or DOP (Director of Photogrpahy) are offered a Sum of money to reflect there contribution to the filming. If additional fixtures and extra programming espectially for cameras is not done then this sum is only really ever a token of appriecaction often an extra days wages.

 

If loads of audience extras / additonal key lights ect are added then the production comapny will for the most part bring in a "TV" LD who the production will put the resposibility of getting the lighting right for camera on. They will make more money than the tour LD but they are totaly responsable if the end result looks bad on camera. The tour LD's Buy out would in this case be slightly more as extra work would have to be done to make the show camera ready, as few live shows are ready for camera.

 

If the production company are confident that the tour LD can make the show look great for camera, then usually only a DOP (director of Photography) is employed, He is the LD's link with the "Racks" guy and director. Setting exposure and colour tempriture of the cameras and often also being resposible for keylighting of the band. In this case the tour LD would get most amount of Buy Out, depending on size of tour this could be from a few hundred to a few thousand pounds.

 

2. Very rarerly, but still in some cases the LD is offered 1 percentage point of total profit of the DVD. This is a gamble as if the DVD sells only a few thousand then the LD will make less than a days wages, if however the DVD sells a few million ( very rare for live music videos ) then the LD could get around 20 - 50k.

 

In both cases this deal would have to be done before the show is filmed, I think it would be very hard to go back and make this deal after the DVD has been released. I also think that the amount of money offered if the DVD was only filmed on DV cams would be so small that it is a waste of time even trying to chase it.

 

This is based on my experiace in the live music concert dvd market, in which I have been the LD (or TV LD) on at least 10 in the last 3 years.

 

hope this helps.

[bythesea.33]

Your profile says lighting engineer at an entertainment venue. If they pay you to do this, and basically you walk in the door and do it - then I suspect you can't really claim to be the LD.

 

I know this is off-topic, but this is a huge can of worms you've just opened.

I presume that you DIDN'T mean that someone lighting shows at a venue they are employed by can't design lighting for a show? even for ones released on dvd.

[mac.calder]

I know this is off-topic, but this is a huge can of worms you've just opened.

I presume that you DIDN'T mean that someone lighting shows at a venue they are employed by can't design lighting for a show? even for ones released on dvd.

 

As a general rule, you can still be the LD, however if it is for a third party (ie a band) the credits usually go to the venue (ie Lighting Design by the Drum Theatre) - as you are "bought out" by the company, the design belongs to them. It is primarily a contractual matter.

[paulears]

Macs pretty on the ball here - Let's use one of my venues shows from last year where this kind of thing got quite unpleasant.

 

A straight one-nighter. A tribute band (a good one, but that isn't important) plenty of nice lighting equipment. We rig it on our bars, add our own lighting and then after patching and grouping produce the effects and style of the show - at our venue, the LX op is not called the 'designer' they just make lighting happen. In our case we have a pretty musical team and the style of what we do, I like to think is musically appropriate to the shows - certainly not what they get in all other places they tour to. Now, last year on one of their visits they decided to make a promo video. Wanted extra lighting, extra rehearsals and they didn't think that this was out of the ordinary. Now our lighting is on the DVD. All our staff were being paid for doing the job anyway, but they felt pretty strongly that 'the job' did not include making a video. The band were no prepared to pay anything at all, or give any credit - they simply saw it as a non-problem - they get lighting services as part of the deal.

 

The venue didn't think it was even a problem worth getting involved with, so you can imagine that relationships were a little strained. Everyone on both sides really believed that they were 'right'.

 

 

In the absence of a proper contract that sorts these problems out, then it will usually go very pear shaped.

 

Last little point is the title Lighting Designer. I see design and operation as two very different things - apart from the occasional panto, most venue LX team members operate, they don't really design. What they do is make things already thought about, happen. Somebody walking in to a venue and using what rig already is up may well be happy if it can go a few colours on cue, and maybe adding a couple of specials for specific things - this isn't lighting design in my book. Walking into an empty venue and deciding what will be used, where it will be put, using which colours, at a particular time in a particular style is my 'sort of' definition of design.

 

does this make sense?

[Jamtastic3]

Yeah that makes sense. Thanks guys for your inputs - yes this is probably a lesson I have learnt from but I have never really intended to open a huge can of worms here, initially I just wanted to know the backgrounds of the situation as it didn't even occur to me that I could get anything out of the DVD side of things.

As for my work, I am the only freelance in-house lighting engineer in a live venue including clubnights so I mainly work on average about 4 times a week in the place. Saying that, when this gig came up I thought of it as another band night to light. They did have some extra lighting that I rigged but it was nothing compared to what I have in my rig. I say 'my' rig because I design it, control it, programme it and operate it (as I am the only one). The sound engineers do their bit ad never get involved in the rig.

I understand the situation that paulears has explained, it's almost like mine. Though I definitely know that there was no deal as such in the contract of the band hiring the club to film the night and release it all on a 60 min DVD.

So yeah cheers for the useful information - I'm still on the ladder of learning these areas of the industry. I'm not pursuing this 'case' though it would've been great to see my name, at least, mentioned in the credits.