GruntPuppy

at least we move forward. It's bloody awful stuff. My great-uncle Robert died of mesothelioma, he was a site electrician at a coalmine. I suppose this is possibly why I was so sensitive (snowflakey?) about this. At least the seller was an absolute gem about it.

I've been cheered up this morning by the arrival of a set of barn doors for my 123 at least. They're going to be fun to paint, polish and re-rivet, but they are at least in rather nice condition, so should do well.

Old steam ships were an asbestos hazard in manufacture or repair because of the asbestos lagging on the steam pipes, In service they were considered to be made safe as long as the asbestos was totally painted.

Humans are very good at good ideas that later turn out to be really, really bad... I'll be sorry to see this go, but not sorry it's gone, if you know what I mean.

The seller offered to let me keep the tag with my date of birth on it, I think he was amused at how horrified I was - it belongs to THAT lamp, after all! I also will be surprised if I see a factory static mount like that again, but hey ho. I shall just have to buy a tripod or two as a cheer-me-up.

Well, he finally rang back - as the saying goes, "bloody nice bloke." He's coming down to collect the item himself, so that's one less thing to worry about - and is taking the appropriate precautions.

I'll be sorry to see it go, but I'm erring firmly on the side of caution these days.

My linkI suspect that the cable pictured is covered in rayon, and not asbestos. I have seen similar on various vintage appliances. Rayon covering over rubber was popular at one time, the rayon protected the rubber from wear and improved the appearance.

 

I would however proceed carefully, following AS A MINIMUM the precautions that I earlier suggested, just in case it is asbestos.

 

Gloves, respirator, overalls, vacuum cleaner, work outdoors, launder all clothing and take a shower after the work.

Did the flame test, it's not rayon :(

Seller is going to arrange collection. Gutted. I wasn't particularly looking for a 123n, but one with an inspection tag of my date of birth I couldn't resist. Oh well, the collection reduces to 4 :(

That said, if a 123hn comes up... :) or a second 23 that I can convert to a 23w so I can have one standard and one wide throw ;)

[edit]

I think we're going to have some fun here. Seller is supposed to be sending a courier on Tuesday morning, I've just pointed out to them the regulations relating to the removal of the lamp/associated items from my premises, including receipt for removal, legal docs required, etc. They requested a phone call, but I've tried three times and they're not answering for some strange reason. Shame really, as this is cannot be cheap. I'd take advantage of Cardiff Council's free removal service (the supplied bags are big enough to hold the whole lamp) and photo-document the bagging, collection and paperwork, but that would entail a conversation first, I think.

The cable's knackered anyway, so you have to replace it regardless.

 

Best to assume the worst.

It's a small quantity anyway, so you only need to launder that carpet and take up Cardiff's kind offer.

Thankfully not my carpet - seller's pic :) I've already mopped down and thoroughly hoovered the laminate flooring, thoroughly hoovered walls and furnishings, barely-damp rag dusted off all hard surfaces. I say "I", I mean "we" - my flatmate has helped me immensely. Just as well, since I'm a little bit disabled...

Sadly the light age, model and cable appearance do match up with some pics online of asbestos-bearing cable, I'm somewhat gutted by this. I may well take the risk myself and do a removal and scrubdown. So far the strand collection is up to a pair of 44's, a 23, a 23n, and a 123. This 23n comes with an inspection tag from my date of birth, I really don't want to lose it, soppy sentimental sod that I am.

I've started an eBay return on this, with the seller warned they will need to be able to organise collection by a courier willing and able to repack and carry asbestos, just in case.

I think it's time I bowed to the inevitable, and admitted to myself that I have a Strand problem.

 

I am not up to speed on current law but it used to be that you could remove and bag up asbestos inside your premises at your own risk but once you placed it outside your door that was transportation for which a licence is required.

 

As for the NBC suit .... we had a new heating system installed a few years back and they found a fireproof sheet of asbestos through which the flue passed. They hired in the experts who built a plastic tunnel from the flue, out of the closet, down the hall, through our flat door and out through the main entrance. They had 6 guys working on 32 flats for a month with sealed box trailers to take the waste and give them somewhere to change clothes and yes, they all wore double layered suits with the top flight respirator masks that are now all the rage. All for one square of asbestos sheet a foot square with a 6 inch hole in it in each flat.

Can't find my NBC suit, but I do have a 6800 series mask with fresh filters, heavy duty vinyl gloves, overshoe covers, and an old head-to-toe waterproof suit. Still in 2 minds about this...

Well, confusion reigns.

Having seen a photograph of the cable, a couple of asbestos specialists have come forward with opposing information. One has said "that's asbestos alright", the other "don't worry about it."

So I honestly don't know what the hell to think now... from experience, does this look like the dangerous type of cable cover to you guys?

[edit] If I do decide to take the risk, Cardiff Council have a free collection service for asbestos. They supply 2 bags - one clear, one overbag - for the purpose.

If you do come across what you suspect to be asbestos containing materials, please remember that it is the dust that is harmful. Bending or any handling of asbestos insulated wiring will release hazardous dust. Other parts around the lamp such as washers, gaskets, padding around lenses can contain asbestos as well. Old asbestos-containing light fittings should be disposed intact and complete as asbestos containing waste.

 

At your own personal risk, if you do choose to get involved with old lamps potentially containing asbestos, I suggest you use a large container of water (no, not the kitchen sink!), submerge everything and remove all the potentially asbestos containing parts under water. Whilst the bits are still wet, double bag the waste in heavy duty plastic bags and dispose of it legally. The bits that you wish to keep (which probably will be metal,glass,ceramics and plastics only) and all the equipment used must be scrubbed clean (including gasket residues) and thoroughly rinsed several times with clean water. It is important that no residues or surface dust is left behind when everything dries.

Wow. I shall be extremely careful. Now where did I leave my NBC suit...

I've seen reference in some of the old Strand brochures to asbestosite being present in the tailing and tailings of some lamps - Am I right in thinking that the tailing refers to the power cable? I plan on replacing the electrics end to end on the lamps I'm working on, I just want to know if I need to take any precautions with regards the handling and disposal of older leads?

Google has not been my friend on this one... Besides confirming that Asbestosite contains asbestos.

We have a small batch of Patt123s that until recently were still in our studio rig, and still see use as practicals and get-out-of-jail-cards. I'm moving towards retiring them as they don't have the same zoom range as our other stock (our studio has an annoyingly low rig) and are becoming a maintenance pain.

How small is small? My parents have decided they quite like the look of them... and I can't resist my monther's (spelling deliberate - monster+mother) hopeful looks...

Whereabouts are you?

I am, for my sins, living in Cardiff.

I have at least located a stand for one of the type 44's in the last 10 minutes - an ex fire brigade metal tripod that I'll refinish in the same paint as the lamp. It's a little low at about a metre, but for £35 (Have you SEEN the prices people are slapping on anything vintage? Barstewards!) + £9 shipping, it'll do. By the time I finish with it, it'll have gloss black paintwork, possibly I'll replace the boltwork with brass hardware, although I'm more likely to go with stainless steel. Either way, it'll look a darn sight better than it currently does, and if I don't like it I'll be able to at least sell it on. I now need to find a wooden tripod for the other lamp. I'm planning on using a wooden tripod, so I can strip back, stain and varnish the wood ready for the signwriter's touch on top.

Here are some pictures of both the original reflector and the LED conversion which does away with it.

That looks like a rather nice conversion. I know from my own experiences that the simpler a conversion looks, the more work has gone into it - and your conversions look "factory" - that, and the contrast between furry aluminium and the refinished cases is night and day. I'm looking at a similar colour (Scania Chassis Grey) but in a gloss "heavy duty" enamel for parts of my 23/23N/123 lamps.

I've got the chance of a patt 123 lamp - which will complete the planned (and unplanned collection) - but it has no lamp holder or reflector. Does anyone have one they can sell me, or perhaps point me in the right direction to buy one please?

 

 

I should have all these bits as I removed them from a batch of 123s I fitted LEDs into for an interior design project a few years ago. They will be in a "safe place" in one of three workshops so may take a while to find.

Hi, that would be appreciated - any news on the Patt 23 / 23n bits at all? I still need a metal floor stand or 2, an additional 23 lens and retaining clip, oh and I'm also looking for tripods for my patt 44's :o

The reflector was fitted to the lamp tray which was fixed to the base plate through a slot by means of a bolt. Focus was adjusted by sliding the lamp tray backward and forwards on the base plate. I seem to recall but this is a long time ago that the early ones had the reflector bolted at the base and later ones to a bar behind but I may be quite wrong. It is a great pity that they have become a style icon as they could still be doing very useful work in many a space.

Let me rephrase then - a large aluminium pan will be providing the raw material for the lamp tray ;)

I agree that it's sad they have become a style icon, but at least many of them are being preserved in some shape or form. It seems a shame that a lot of them have been discarded from theatrical work (I'm assuming) due to the work needed to bring them up to modern PAT standards and (again, assuming) the cost benefits in running more modern, more economical lights instead. I will be partially polishing mine to highlight the beautiful design, but also using a dark grey enamel gloss in places as well - I can't be doing with these fully polished examples I see everywhere. IMHO a fully polished lamp can become lost in a room as it reflects everything else around it; at least with partial painting that gorgeous shape is highlighted.

It's the same with the Patt 23 and 23n, they deserve more than just to be polished to a mirror. Someone on this forum has told me of having their lamps copper plated, which sounds absolutely glorious. I'll be going the paint AND polish route again, and the same with whatever stands they end up on. I've gotten hold of the original fixed iris plates that the 23s were supplied with from factory (in needs of a strip back and repaint), plus a few gobo holders (modern aluminium, so I'll repaint them to match the lamp), gel (cel?) holders (again in need of stripping and repainting), the gobos themselves I'll just clean up. The variable iris that I have will initially get an oily rag restoration, I do plan on disassembling, cleaning up, repainting and reassembling at some point. I have managed to get a desktop tripod stand in cast aluminium that has had nickel plating badly applied (it was sold to me as a "second"), so I'll be stripping that back, and selectively polishing/painting to match the 23, I'll do the same with the 23n stand when I find a suitable one, I want a floorstander for that unit.

My only departure from this will be with my Patt 44 baby spots. I finally found a picture in an archive that gives a positive ID match for these :) One will be getting a restoration back to original - I wish I knew what black crystalline enamel looked like, I suspect I'll be getting the casing stove enamelled if I can, and painting it with a high gloss "regular" enamel if I can't afford the stove enamelling route. I'm going to see if I can get the holes that were drilled to retro-fit a Klaxon(!) motor on the side welded to fill them.

The other type 44 lamp, I'm going to have some fun with. It's going a deep maroon colour, and I'm going to get it signwritten by a traditional showman's signwriter. The same will be done to a period tripod. I'll keep the motor unit on the side if I can get it working (I have 2 to play with at least, both my 44's had these on them), it will have to be boxed in somehow for safety compliance though, as there are loose wires and exposed transformer bits all over the place! Possibly a transformer cover from a valve amp will be modified to suit. I figure it's been Frankensteined enough that I can have a little fun with it, and do the work well enough that it will be in shape to at least perform a useful function for the next 80+ years.

I've got a P28 base, but probably not the base plate or reflector. Are you buying a shell that's been gutted for its useful bits?

 

When you get bored with Strand I've got a couple of Furze 1kW fresnels that may be looking for a home by then.

Gutted? Yep, it would appear so - all I really need is the reflector and something to bracket it with, as I'm going to fit a more modern bulb. I have an old 1950's saucepan that is going to supply a nice thick piece of aluminium to act as a mounting plate. Who knows, with a bit of careful design and cutting it may well be bracket and base plate all in one :)

I may be in touch at some point about the Furzes, but it will be awhile, as I want to get the Strands done before I do anything else lampy.

I've got the chance of a patt 123 lamp - which will complete the planned (and unplanned collection) - but it has no lamp holder or reflector. Does anyone have one they can sell me, or perhaps point me in the right direction to buy one please?

So far I'm up to a Patt 23, a Patt 23n (which I couldn't resist as it's got an inspection tag on it from my date of birth), a pair of patt 43 or 44's - I really need to do more research on these - and the 123 will be it from the Strand family for the lamps for a while - I fancy doing one or two Furse lights after these...

The Patt 43 lamps arrived - and are NOT what I expected. They're Patt 44's... Not going to complain about that, I like the wierd and wonderful.

The Manufacturer's plate on the back is for Strand Electric, for their 24 Floral Street address, which the internet says they moved from in 1932, making these lamps between 88 and 92 years old. The motorised mounts on the side appear to have been made by Klaxon, I can't tell when, but with black, red and green wiring that at least dates them to being pre-77. I do hope these aren't klaxons that make a hellish noise as a special effect, with the lamp effect bolted on for emphasis...

I was expecting something rather more beaten up to arrive, but the lamp that I've unboxed is rather nice. I was expecting to be dealing with rust, and there's none to be found so far. I don't think there's any under the paint to find either - no signs of bubbling. Thoughts of mounting two motor units on one lamp have vanished as well, if they were in worse condition I would, but restraint is called for here; one will be taken back to bog-standard, the other one will retain its' motor unit, and I'll probably have some fun with a stand-out paint job on it when it's converted, a traditional Showman's maroon colour and some circus-inspired signwriting. As long as it isn't a noisy bugger ;)

I don't know what to work on first, now! Probably the 23 - I'm dying to get the toolkit dusted off and start by tapping out those bloody roll pins and start a strip-down so I can plan the safety upgrades.

Just as well I forgot to push "post" - I'm happy to report the other lamp is nice as well - the structure is sound, I clean, strip, paint from there for both lamps now - they're BOTH nice :)

Popped up today on the wonderful Facebook group "archiving technical theatre history"

https://share.icloud...mm3qkx3TPfkBAAg

 

https://share.icloud...WfvM16LSqQT8spw

 

https://share.icloud...mnAHuyWu4UTU87w

Those look rather lovely. I may have to get some sheet metal laser-cut to make my own, or try and find something compatible with the setup on the 43's I bought. That's a lovely share, thank you.

I can't remember who said it (it might have been me - the little grey cells aren't what they were) but the noise we lampies and vidiots make with fans and motors is equivalent to the sound engineer mounting a couple of 60 Watt light bulbs on the main speakers and leaving them switched on.

Depends on the gig surely? A quiet drama in a small space vs AC/DC at the O2. At one of these events, a bunch of fans near a punter's ear could easily ruin a night out, and a venues reputation. Re-reading; I now think we are in agreement.

Well in my bedroom, the gig will be a darkened room, Type 43 with the wheels turning, and me listening to a good headphone-centric piece of stereo or two at the other end. I don't expect to worry too much about motor noise (I suspect the units are based on turntable motors, not the noisiest things anyway). The other Type 43 will be in the lounge keeping my main system company. The 23 will be in my bedroom as well. Sharing a flat with one's ex is not recommended, at least with this many lights I'll be able to see her coming ;)

I've got an a3 colour inkjet, since I'll be using low output (heat and light) bulbs I think some experimentation with a few designs could be fun when/if I can get the things running. Flames and waves are the obvious first candidates.

 

There is quite a bit to making a success of this, assuming you are hoping to 'project' the results of something printed. Firstly, you need a lantern that will project at all (e.g a profile spot like a 23, not a fresnel). Then you need a point light source (e.g not multiple LEDs). Then you need to put the thing you want to project at the optical centre of the unit (the 'gate') and not just stick it in front of the whole thing. Feel free to experiment.

 

 

I concur with Kit on the MX colour wheels, they were perfectly functional for a choice of colours in the days before the whizzing, slapping, and often, snapping, when it came to badly managed scrollers. The whirr of a colour changer was quite a novel sound in the theatre, but of course today would probably be inaudible above the cacophony of fans in moving lights, digital projectors and other kit.

Good point. I'll probably go with undulating colour bars on the wheels, one top to bottom, one bottom to top, or try for either a fire or an ocean effect.

LIke this There was a control box available but I never saw on in use.

 

At Derby Playhouse we used about half a dozen of those colour changers with the control box until maybe the late 90's. I then repurposed them as projector shutters and used them until the early 2000's. I think I have a picture of the controller somewhere but haven't been able to find it quickly. The wheel had small magnets attached and the position was read by a reed switch on the mounting frame. They were a lot quieter than scrollers.

That sounds rather interesting, I'll be quite happy with a couple of "flick and pray" toggle switches that I can flush mount in ;)

Probably not Gobo wheels on the side but a colour changer spinning disk with different coloured gels.

 

They were used without control i.e. just continuously spinning in a lot of clubs, more advanced was a separate switched circuit for the motor and guess work switching to get the colour you wanted.

 

Good luck with the restorations and look forward to seeing the progress.

[sigh] I have a lot of terminology to learn before I can join in adult lighting conversations properly [/sigh]

I've got an a3 colour inkjet, since I'll be using low output (heat and light) bulbs I think some experimentation with a few designs could be fun when/if I can get the things running. Flames and waves are the obvious first candidates.

LIke this There was a control box available but I never saw on in use. As the previous poster raid they were usually switched on and left. In many venues they were mounted on Strand swivel arm wall brackets - can't remember the ref number but someone paid £52 for one this month on ebay

 

You might be interested in

Yep, similar. My lights look like a jerry-rigged homegrown solution using record player motors at first sight. I do love "that guy's work" - I just wish I had access to the same facilities (and his skills). If this project does come together (I'll be concentrating on the Patt 23, these will be an infill project, for when/if I'm waiting for things like vapour blasting and powder coating) I have an idea for frankenlamp - I have an artist friend who learned traditional travelling show signwriting/pinstriping/decoration, once I've figured out the base colours for the frankenlamp it might be fun to let her loose on it, to see what she can come up with.

You don't say what size lamp you're fitting but with the rated lamp it gets very hot in there - too hot for cable ties, p clips or even lacing - hence the asbestos cabling used originally.

They'll be entering gentle retirement in my lounge and bedroom, so LED bulbs in e37 (from memory) holders will be the order of the day. The cabling I'm planning will be overkill in the extreme for the current I'm dealing with. I must remember to get a little plate for the inside saying what bulbs to use, seeing as one is probably going to my parents.

Good illustrated article on Lacing for Cable Looms. You can still buy waxed string from RS Components .

It's a great article - chapter 9 of this is pretty damn cool as well https://standards.nasa.gov/standard/osma/nasa-std-87394

As late as 1970 Furse products were still supplied with three separate asbestos covered conductors passing through a simple cable gland. It was archaic then. For strapping cables to bars it was insulating tape and the new plastic type had happily replaced the old fabric type which could be very unpleasant to use and rolls stored for any length of time became incredibly manky. When I went into the coin machine industry in 1973 working on a drinks machine line somebody had invented the plastic spiral cable containment system for wiring looms which gave a very tidy job but wasn't so clever in pre-manufactured looms which turned out to be faulty when they were installed as you had to wind back yards of the stuff making simple repairs pointless - indeed I made a loom tester especially for the job so that we could test the blasted things before they went in and could send them straight to the bin. (It might have been an idea if they'd been tested by the makers.) I don't recall cable ties being widely available in all sizes back then indeed I can't recall when I first saw one but I don't remember anything like the really long ones which have been developed once folk realised just how wide the application of the locking zip principle could be. Kerry might have a groove on his finger but a really nice string tied loom by a skilled worker could be a joy to behold.

I remember but don't want to revisit lanterns having L & N wired in asbestos wool insulated 7 strand cable and the earth being a plain copper braid spiral wound round an asbestos covered pair and secured with a half hitch at each end. Then there was the tarred cotton braid used as insulating tape.

 

Sometimes history is better left behind.

 

One drop of water and asbestos wool is a fair conductor of electricity.

 

For hot location wires inside a case or cabinet I'd look for ceramic beads, and maybe nickel wire. For warm locations there is flex intended for wiring immersion heaters which is good to probably 75C continuous, check the spec for what you find. For in a box use ceramic body terminal blocks are readily available.

My goodness, there are some horror stories there! I'll quite happily use modern domestic mains cable, strip the outer insulator off and use overbraids on the individual insulated wires to give a more period look to the wiring I'm going to do. I suppose as long as it doesn't look glaringly modern and - more importantly - is safe, I'll be happy.

Do you mean "lacing"?

I thought that people doing "plate wiring" were still taught lacing and loom making? I still have a groove on the outside of my right index finger where the waxed string bit.

 

More modern was braided flexible sleeving which car restorers use as a shortcut and are the basis for "snakes". If you look on line for "making a car wiring harness" or "DIY wiring looms" there are videos galore and a choice of step by step guides, some more useful than others.

 

This may be nothing like what you are after but it might be a start.

 

 

E2A Cross-post with Adam who may be closer than me to what is required.

Before cable ties, insulating tape or pieces of string were used, or the installation was designed not to need ties. Within complex electronic equipment "lacing cord" was used. Simple equipment such as theatre lanterns or electric heaters often used rigid single core wire for internal connections that stayed in place once installed.

 

In the case of fixed installations, then much use was made of conduit or trunking so as to minimise the amount of flexible cord. When large scale use of multiple flexible cords was unaviodable as in theatre lighting, then wrought iron hooks fixed to the building structure were used. Flexible cords could be neatly hung from these hooks and removed when needs changed, these are still sometimes used.

 

Large armoured power cables were fixed to the building structure with cleats, and still are.

Well, goodness. Two very, very useful posts indeed! I'd never heard of electrical twine until this point, and am now thoroughly fascinated. Whether I'd be able to do it neatly with my grumbly fingers is another matter, but it's certainly something to aspire to. The use of insulating tape is a possibility, the use of rigid single core wire is an interesting possibility, as is twisting the wire, I suppose.

Thank you for your help, gents.