Alec

There's also Van Damme (obviously much lower with trade prices)

On 4/4/2024 at 5:01 PM, Simon Lewis said:

The other quite well known one is Sound Tools, which are quite pricey, like the others.

However, I have been using the Thomann CAT Snake series for combined audio and AES3 and they work just fine - albeit in an installed system rather than touring.
They are so cheap, it's not really worthwhile making a home made version. They make different XLR pin variants too.

https://www.thomann.de/gb/the_sssnake_cat_snake_3mb.htm

Not at all what the OP was asking about!

OP asked for cheap - these 12xRGBW come in at just £20.  I've had 4 that I've used for years.

They're plastic, and the yokes are pretty thin metal.  Fine for personal use, but wouldn't lend/hire them to anyone.  Whiny fan, but never a problem in a band scenario, and wouldn't be in a bar with music.  I like the fact that the sockets are side mounted, so the units will sit on their rear as uplighters, which is how I use them.  The colour fade pattern is less smooth than I'd like.  But DMX control is great.  Blinding on axis - fairly narrow bearm angle.  At that price, they're disposable.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32984755709.html

46 minutes ago, madanglian said:

Well, I'm not, really, it's just that it would be another round of research to find a tablet that fits the need at a decent price. I'd also need to get a mount so that I can use it with one hand, as I'll also be doing slides and the streaming software (via RDP on two other laptops) at the same time.

I'll save you the time, then.  If budget is tight, get a Kindle Fire, 7" or 10".  10" is more pricey, but much better.  Either will support Mixing Station just fine.

Trust me, you'd soon regret trying to mix on a non touchscreen laptop if you're juggling other stuff.

4 hours ago, madanglian said:

Yeah, it wasn't a deal-clincher. I just liked the idea of being able to use my Chromebook, which is nice and light, and the battery lasts for about 4 hours.

I'm not keen on tablets - I like something you can put down and it'll stay where it's put - but I can see how a touch screen would make the whole job a lot easier. I don't think my fingers and my eyesight are up to using a phone 😆

A non-touchscreen device is probably the least friendly thing to mix on.  If your fingers and eyesight are not up to using a phone, you will probably struggle with fader operation using a mouse or, even worse, a trackpad.

If you're really wedded to the idea of a laptop (and it's an odd thing to want so strongly), then you could go for a touchscreen laptop, but suspect you wouldn't want additional spend.

Not sure what you're saying about tablets, but I happily put my tablet down when I'm not actively using it.

Are you the only person that will ever use this?  What happens when you're not there?  A lot of churches end up with multiple people mixing.  BYOD can work well there.

Don't be too sold on the platform agnostic concept of browser based control.  In theory, it's great.  But people have had issues with OS/browser updates causing problems with it.  And it's highly unlikely to get *any* further update from the vendor.  Thankfully, Mixing Station would come to your rescue.

In the end, though, your choice...

On 3/15/2024 at 11:40 PM, TheBigLongy said:

Definitely going to go for either then x32 compact with stagebox or possibly the full x32....if I can find one used for a reasonable price. I do have a few sm57/58, sennheiser clip on drum mics, beta kick mic and some others bits (crest audio x18rm monitor mixer) that may come in handy to fill some gaps if required. I would happily go for an analogue mixer providing I can set up a permanent line box, I have some spare along with cables and connectors in my storage.

Whilst most bands will likely have some sort of PA, I really don't want to rely on anyone else. I am reasonably competent as an engineer and many moons ago I had a jbl rig that I used to accompany to various venues...the vast majority of bands I engineered were very complimentary about the sound and monitoring, so as long as my ears are still up to scratch and my tech brain is on point, I should hope this will entice a few more to play the venue without worry.

Why on earth would you have a separate monitor desk?  Just run mons from the FOH desk like every other small club does.

And why not just avoid all the cost/effort by hiring in bands with PA?

On 3/14/2024 at 1:16 PM, Stuart91 said:

A relatively inexpensive (refurb?) tablet dedicated to running the app is probably the way to go. Tying up a laptop for desk control seems like overkill, and touch control makes the task much easier.

I'd agree with that - much easier to mix from a tablet than a laptop.  And, with your simple requirements, using a smart phone is perfectly reasonable.

14 hours ago, david.elsbury said:

The UI24 is reportedly much better, with vastly improved preamps 

And likely outside the seemingly tight budget for a modest channel count.

11 hours ago, J Pearce said:

If you go with the Behringer XR range, I'd advise using a good quality external access point or router. The onboard one isn't great, and being onboard often ends up in non-ideal locations for wifi coverage (covered in cable, in a rack, under the stage, etc.).

We use a XR18 for foyer events and other pop-ups - it's a great bit of kit and works very well.

The OP already said they were planning to connect to a wired network, so that was already in hand.

I helped a church that moved into temporary accommodation for 9 months during a refurb.  They left behind an analog desk, and returned to an x32.  We deployed my XR18 for the interim period, where it was a setup/teardown every week, most notably for ease of deployment.  For the various volunteer engineers, it was their first taste of digital mixers and mixing on glass - and was impressive how quicky they all took to it.  And had the side benefit of pre-training them for the bigger setup when they finally moved back in.

XR series are a cracking little utility workhorse at the bottom end of the budget.  For their size/cost, they're very flexible in terms of the I/O, they sound just fine, they're as reliable as anything else, and they're very well supported with third party tools. 

Any decent 12" over 18" (or even 15") system would be as good, if not better, than most social clubs have.  As budget is tight, something like Yamaha DXR or RCF ART 700 series would do a reasonable job.

Glad you're thinking X32 & digital stagebox.  That means you can forget any outboard - that would would be a complete waste of time, as well as adding a load of unneccessary cabling and bulk at FOH.

Don't most social club bands tend to bring along their own PA, though?

What about lighting?

What was the physical separation between all the systems - most notably the two additional ones?  I'm guessing they were just piled in.  Spacing them out can do wonders with intermod

The wrong product at the right price is still the wrong product.  Do you really want connection issues, that people still have, or noisy phantom power pre-s, that people still have, or the janky PSUs?  Don't be over-persuaded by the HTML5 browser control, while some love it, I hated it when I had to use it.  Thankfully, Mixing Station is available to rescue you if you need it.

I don't know why so many people still seem desperate to follow the path of woe that the UI12/16 have been over the years.  Not to mention that Soundcraft are essentially a dead company now.

You're clearly in the low budget arena, nothing wrong with that.  Just get the XR mixer

Don't forget that you need continuity from shell to shell, which requires metal RJ45s to have been used.

Easy to check continuity with any multimeter.

Why not look at the details of the DM3 on Yamaha's product page, it'll tell you what it can do.

Regarding apps available, maybe watch this video, you could download the apps and see what you make of them, and dry-run the mixer.  And, like Stuard91 mentions, you're not limited to their apps, as Mixing Station is available - which you'd need if you wanted an Android solution.

For most people, with a laptop, the cheapest & easiest method is usually just to get a multitrack interface and use a DAW.  For a cheap 16-in interface, it's hard to beat an XR18.

There are obvously the standalone options, but typically pricey, albeit tidy to use.  But hard to beat the bargain of a DAW & cheap interface.

There's nothing wrong with X/M32 and, at the price, simply can't be beaten.  Although old and no touch screen, they have the benefit of ubiquity and a number of third party apps.  A few things aren't user friendly.  An 11 year old design, but still perfectly functional - and CHEAP!

For a bit more, SQ is better in most respects.  My favourite bits - 48 channels, fully customisable layers, easy routing, proper stereo in/out channels.  My irks - useless scribble strips, stereo/mono assignments not stored in scenes (and I know why A&H say they don't do this), the cryptic file structure they use on USB, charging for additional FX.  Mind you, I cringe to see some of the fanatical A&H fans, saying how brilliant their (rather basic) QU is, or how fabulous their SQ sounds.

I've hated my few Presonus experiences.

I would once have recommended Soundcraft VI, albeit not their lower desks, but Soundcraft seem to have given up these days.

Digico never seemed to find much love for S21/31.

With all that, at the budget the OP is talking about, SQ would be a great choice. 

If you've bothered to look at A&H's product list, you'll know that the answer is no - and there'd be no viable market for it.

As Richard says, if you are Dante equipped, then the options open up.

But why wouldn't you simply rung a pair of XLRs?  Or, if desperate to use only one cable, or to use existing structured cabling, use 1 CatX cable to run both signals analog, and you still have two more lines spare.

You've never mentioned how you actually deploy your existing kit.  Please don't tell me you simply pull out three receivers, plonk them in a pile by FOH and hope for the best - with audience between your badly interacting antennae and the talent.

Rack them up with an antenna distribution unit and put them close to the talent.  You might well be surprised at how brilliant your kit is.

And as others have said, buy some used beltpacks and cheap headset mics, and you'll be smiling.

On 4/5/2023 at 11:47 AM, timsabre said:

The unit's inbuilt wifi can struggle in a room with a lot of people, an external wireless access point can be better.

As said before, there's no optionality, just use an external router/AP.  Otherwise, it's only a matter of time before things will go badly for you.  Thankfully, it sounds like you're on top of this already.

On 4/5/2023 at 7:33 PM, richardash1981 said:

A lot of the time the current tablet does the job plugged in to mains power, although it's battery does last very well. Maybe I should start packing a USB power bank?

I use the bigger/faster Tab A8.  It, and the A7 Lite, have battery enough to take you through any show with bucketloads to spare.  You'd be daft not to carry a USB PSU, though - much better that, than to bring a USB power bank that you might forget to have charged.

I'd echo the view to get Mixing Station on your phone.  Can be a real problem solver in a pinch - including a flat batter.

If these are just for show, why not just construct props?  Don't need to be particularly resilient, nor functional.  Props could be much lighter, without drivers.

I'll echo many others and say that I've been very happy with my Orchid DIs.  I use the Stadard, Muting, Micro, and Dual Micro.

I also have no problem with Radial DIs - other than the price.

That said, most DIs do the job to a decent standard.  The only exception to this is, of course, the nasty Behringer DI-20.

I have to say with the x-air the internal wifi has been very solid. If you have a dedicated tablet to control it, it's just a case of turning it on and tapping the app, off it goes. Also the mixer powers on in its last state so all channel gain/mute settings come back within a couple of seconds of power on even if no control devices are connected.

You haven't said the word "yet". No problem using the internal wi-fi if it works for you at home or in a non-critical environment. But, when you've got punters in a show, frankly, not using an external router is stupid, and you will deserve the problems that will most likely hit you at the most awkward time.

Tablet control is not too bad at all. I don't think I'd want to use it on a festival, but for simple stuff, shows with a bit of setup time, rehearsed tours etc., it's really doable.

It's *all* about familiarity with the interface and setting things up to work quickly and efficiently.

I'll happily do small festivals - FOH & 4 way monitoring from a tablet. One of the big benefits, if you're single manning, is to be able to walk up to the talent end do their monitors with them. So, what you lose with a tactile surface, you gain in other areas.

I wouldn't worry a huge amount anyone who really cares is going to be touring their own desk in so it's important to make it easy to integrate toured in desks.

This.

From my limited view I've seen more Yamaha in venues and it's easier to hire Yamaha than A&H, for example if the desk dies and you need a hired in replacement at short notice.

This.

However you get more bang per buck with A&H exactly because they are less 'rider friendly' so add more features at a lower price point to make sales. A person I know who owns their own desk and programs their own shows on it went with A&H DLive.

And, very much, this.

I'd start by wiggling L/R or Grp routing buttons, then check however the individual channel boards are connected together (back plane or ribbons?)

Definitely try this. I remember a 20 year old Behringer desk that had served its time, but had a number of channel faults. They were all down to dirty switches, and depending on the switch, a different symptom presented.

For example, a dirty HPF would kill the whole channel, as it's at the start of the signal chain. A dirty output selector, like Main LR, would pass signal to the pre-fade sends, but not to LR, and so on.

I suspect, as PK says, that it may be more internal than that.

You do realise, though, that this mixer is nothing special - and that it's original owner had appraised it fairly appropriately...?

Are there any recommendations for headphones or in-ears that would give enough isolation to be able to mix for broadcast without being too coloured by the ambient acoustics. Typically at mix position we will be getting 75-85 dB A(slow) from backline and monitors alone, 90-95 with FOH running and I don't want to be killing my hearing running cans loud enough to get over this.

 

Somewhat frustratingly for the last few months I've been doing this remotely from another room, acoustically isolated from the church using a tablet remote and I have been very happy with the results. Recently policy has changed and I'm required to mix the streaming sound from within the church itself on cans (Currently using DT770s), and listening back I'm very unhappy with the results. This policy is highly unlikely to change and therefore I'm trying to find the best solution to work in the situation and if investing in different cans or in-ears will help then it's something I'd like to consider.

You've already discovered that the best way to mix broadcast audio is exactly as you were doing, in a separate isolated room with reasonable monitors.

Even in a silent room, you'll find it much harder to mix on headphones. Getting the reverb right - which is critical for a decent band mix, is nigh on impossible. And stereo imaging is completely different as there's no crossfeed between L & R channels. And a broadcast mix needs much more precision - in the room, you've got pretty much every source present acoustically, so you can get away with a *much* rougher mix without it sounding dreadful.

On top of that, by moving into the auditorium, you're now trying to do something that's very hard in the first place under assault conditions.

What I can't understand is why "policy" is requiring you to move from an optimal location to probably the worst location. The only reason I could see for this is that you were mixing FOH for the room as well as for broadcast. Fair enough if you have to, but these are really two separate jobs, and there aren't many people who can do a good job of both at the same time. The "policy" makers need some assistance in understanding what policies help, and what policies hinder.

And, finally, you're risking your hearing in that audio battle, which is where I hit a red line. By all means, make me mix in a suboptimal way, as long as you know that it'll produce suboptimal results. But, if you ask me to risk my ears (health), then I'm probably walking.

A large engraved lable on the front with instructions made it totally idiot proof.

Are you sure? I've found that there's always someone who can help expand my understanding of idiocy...

I've used xair mixers for gigs that haven't got space to a bigger desk for years and find them rock solid, easy to use and sound fine. The one drawback is the wifi so it you are thinking of using it with a tablet then I'd strongly recommend adding an external router, preferably a dual band that can use 5GHz as well the more crowded. Sounds like a great choice to me.

Fully agree.

At this budget end, the XR series really is the only player in town - a proven track record, and the excellent and well supported Mixing Station app. The UI12/16 really aren't worth the hassle. Nothing wrong with the UI24, but it ups the price quite a bit. The Digilive stuff looks pricey for what it offers, and is well away from the mainstream.

Are the XRs like a "full rack form factor"? Far from it! And don't forget there's no external PSU. Personally, I'd always go for the XR18 as you can never have too many channels, (for me) XLR all round is much better, and it's the only one with a multi-track record/playback interface. But if the IO works for you, then the XR12 is smaller and will do so much more than your old Xenyx.

Just a) make sure you get an external router if you're out in public with it and b) work through the initial learning curve - you shouldn't have any regrets.

I came from an 01V96 to the XR18 and never looked back. Other than the fact the 01V96 had faders, *everything* about the XR18 was better. Smaller, lighter, no heavy snake. Truly transformational!