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Lighting a model railway layout


Theodore3815

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Hello, I`m new here and hope I am looking for help in the correct place.

 

I`m trying to light a model railway layout about 9 metres long and to achieve a convincing representation of dawn to dusk.

 

Am I looking for help in the right place please?

 

Bernard Haste

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Not quite in the right place- we deal with theatrical lighting here- try the forums over at http://www.newrailwa...s.co.uk/Forums/ - there's a lot of useful stuff there

 

Ian

 

Many thanks.

 

I`m trying to do something I`ve not seen attempted in the model railway field so there is very little in that area of knowledge available in the model railway press or internet groups.

 

I`m looking initially at how to represent the very faint light of dawn, then the mauves,purples and reds/yellows, and then the very bright ball of the sun coming up over the horizon.

 

Thanks again.

 

Bernard

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Let's not just dismiss this straight away. As an industry we have great experience with programming lighting, and taking ideas from other areas is something we do all the time.

 

At Miniatur Wunderland in Hamburg, this is achieved by three or four coloured flourescent tubes in one fitting that fade through a dawn/daylight/dusk/night cycle every few minutes.

 

I'm sure modern LED technology, perhaps combining two tapes, one of rgb single chip, and one of warm white or daylight, close together with some diffusion medium like diffusion gel might be a way to go.

 

As for how to programme it, decide on what you're going to us then google programmable controls.

 

It's outside our industry, but you know what, we talk about bring backstage online, this place has a distinctly theatrical flavour, but we cross into a non arts area all the time. With corporate work. Why not help a guy out?

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It's outside our industry, but you know what, we talk about bring backstage online, this place has a distinctly theatrical flavour, but we cross into a non arts area all the time. With corporate work. Why not help a guy out?

 

I agree, sounds like a fun project, and LED tape sounds like the perfect way to do it.

RGBW tape is expensive and you mainly want white with colour tints, so I would use runs of warm white tape and add RGB tape which will let you do warm sunrise/sunset, bluey/white sunlight and dim blue moonlight.

Ebay is the cheapest place for tape, look for 5050 tape (5050 white has 3 whites in each LED so is quite bright). You will need quite a lot of it to light a 9 metre layout to a reasonable brightness.

 

How are you planning to control the lighting, do you have a PC available to work with? If so you could get DMX LED drivers and use MagicQ (https://secure.chamsys.co.uk/download) to program timed sequences for your effects. You need either their cheap dongle (£10) which stops after 4 hrs and you have to unplug/replug it or they do a full version for £75.

Example of DMX driver - there are many of these out there. You need to power the driver with 12V at some massive current.

https://www.hiline-lighting.co.uk/gb/led-controllers/65-din-rail-DMX-rgbw-led-controller-5060440710209.html

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Very many thanks.

 

What I have in mind is as follows.

 

The model is of a real station in Switzerland that I visit regularly.

 

We are going to run trains that represent the entire day of operation on the real railway.

 

Some days have stunning dawn effects and beautiful sunsets whilst others can be grey and miserable all day.

 

Since 1981 when I first saw the real place I wanted a model of it and since 1992 when I first observed a full day I have wanted to recreate the lighting but how to do it?

 

I would like to obtain the effect of pre-dawn light initially and I thought some RGB LED strip might do this. When the colours start coming up I thought this might be done with multiple shortish strips of RGB LEDs with different colour settings and brightness to get the various colours. that would be controlled individually. Then as dawn really breaks I thought we might introduce the use of PAR lamps mounted high up in the layout to start the full day lighting. How to obtain the sun itself and its movement up above the skyline and until it goes out of sight (on the model as it is too high in the sky) I have not resolved yet.

 

As the day continues I would like the PAR lamps (there would be several of them) to get brighter and change the angles of shadows on the layout to give the effect of the sun moving overhead and then finishing with sunset and dusk to darkness again.

 

I have thought for some time that about £1500 might be a figure that could achieve this but I don`t know why!!!

 

There are 73 moves in total and I would like to use the moves to drive a control mechanism that changes the lighting subtly each move. I would also like to have an alternative sequence that represents a dull day. The entire sequence takes about 5.5 hours.

 

Presently we have 35m of RGB LEDs from Maplins which don`t have to be used (we have an alternative use for them ready). Otherwise there is no equipment in stock but we do have two laptops that could be used but don`t have to be.

 

I now have the layout but no lighting that I would like.......

 

Bernard Haste

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How much height is available above the model?

Can you post some photos?

 

I don't think the laws of physics will allow you to make the moving shadows like you want on a 9m long model. You'd either need a very bright light at a vast distance (like the sun...) or multiple light sources but then you would get multiple shadows. I think you might have to compromise on that.

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Something similar used to be done back in the day on a large railway layout that used to be one of the attractions at the Montague Motor Museum. Here they had plenty of height and a perfect blackout and the effect of the changeover from the layout being lit only by scale street lights etc to full daylight from overhead sources was quite stunning. I think as far as the daylight effect you want the amount of height will be crucial. I agree with Tim re the shadows to make it look realistic you'd have to have some sort of track mounted source well out side the 9m footprint of the layout baseboard I think and moreover one which dips to allow for sunset. Given the space it could probably be done but I don't think the casual viewer would notice really. 73 moves in 5.5 hours - is that around a quarter scale timetable?
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From a transition of the day point of view, you're best to calculate the theoretical arc of the sun over the course of a specific day (obviously seasonal variations would be difficult) and have a multiple of whatever (wide flood) LED units you choose set along that arc, with a VERY slow fade/chase along them to simulate the 'movement' of the sun.

I think you'll struggle big time to get a large variation of accurate colour renditioning for the differing types of weather you're describing, and getting that many lanterns in your rig may prove rather expensive...

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This is the fluorescent transition I mentioned.

 

 

If you are going down the route of multiple strips of LED tape (RGB, Warm White, Cool White, for suggestion), and programming them via a single universe DMX control, which might not be the best for your application, but what we here know about, then might perhaps splitting your tape into shorter sections and having more DMX LED controllers allow you to simulate times of day by increasing and decreasing brightness over different areas of the model, or simulate weather conditions or clouds passing? Which is your original idea, so lets not get too far from that, go and research DMX LED tape control, get a £10 chamsys USB/DMX adapter, download the maqicQ software and see if you can make it work.

Bear in mind this £10 dongle will let you control 512 separate variables, and for each LED RGB controller, you need 3. Say for the sake of ease, you use 2 controllers per area of tape (one full controller for RGB, one shared on Warm and Cool white, as they need 1 channel each) then over the available 512 addresses, you get 85 separate areas of control (but you blow your budget)

 

Example DMX controller for RGB LED: http://www.ultraleds.co.uk/pxl33216-rgb-DMX-controller-12-24v-dc-3-channel-x-3a.html

 

It's about to get to the point, with that kind of level of control and alteration that someone suggests pixel tape, or overhead video wall. Lets not.

 

But breaking your tape runs down into as many controllers as you can afford, will give you different zones to control to simulate the passage of time.

 

Or Ynot's idea of LED floods around the model would work just as well. Just put most of your light sources pointing from the south side of the model in an E/W line, and you'd be reasonably close to accurate sunlight and shadowing.

Again, controlling anything DMX can be done from a laptop with a DMX USB dongle from chamsys.

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Wonderful stuff. Thank you VERY much.

 

The layout varies in depth from 750mm to 1550mm at the east end which is, of course, where dawn will start. I`m also able to arrange things so there is a gap behind the scenery and in front of the backscene. This an area where lighting stuff could be put and I imagined I could put some of the RGB strips in that area.

 

I`ve seen moving lanterns (in a Pink Floyd concert film) and was mightily impressed and I did wonder if they could be used to simulate the shadow movement. I realise several moving lanterns would be needed.

 

From the front of the layout display to the actual layout is about 600mm ( there is a walkway between the front of the display and the front edge of the model). The maximum height available at the front of the display is 2 metres and to go higher would dramatically change the effect of seeing the model from a distance and I don`t want to do that. I do appreciate that the distance from the illuminant to the item to be lit is crucial in what can be achieved in that distance in terms of beam spread.

 

Has anyone any ideas of what could represent the rising sun? Obviously I can`t shine a laser from the backscene along the layout (H and S) but perhaps there is a really intense lamp/LED that could rise up the backscene in imitation (and be the right colour).

 

Once again you are being really helpful and I a mightily impressed at the skills you are mentioning.

 

Bernard

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Has anyone any ideas of what could represent the rising sun? Obviously I can`t shine a laser from the backscene along the layout (H and S) but perhaps there is a really intense lamp/LED that could rise up the backscene in imitation (and be the right colour).

 

In theatre this effect is done with a semi-transparent backcloth with an illuminated circular lightbox behind it, the box is slowly lifted up and it looks like the sun rising (or moon, depending on the colour...) Google for "theatre moon box" and you will see some pictures. It would be quite mechanically complex for you but because it's an illuminated source (rather than projecting something onto the face of the backcloth) it can look quite realistic with suitable lighting of the back as well.

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The trouble with miniatures with single sources meant to imitate the sun, is that you have to deal with the inverse square law too - this is a bit dull, (no pun intended) but light falls off in brightness, so moving a light away to twice the distance drops the intensity four times, not half. The light from the sun is to all intents, parallel, so in real life we don't see this, plus of course in real life, even on a cloudless day, there is some light coming from the sky which fills in the shadows. To mimic this, you would have to arrange for the key light to be able to move in an arc, and of course, on a long railway, one light couldn't light the entire thing unless a long way away, as in an aircraft hangar.

 

I think the wash of light from colour mixing sources would probably work best, but isn't going to do shadows. Looking at the Thomas the Tank Engine clips on youtube, that series used fairly standard TV/Film lighting with a key, fills and cyc lighting for the sky.

 

This could be an interesting project.

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moving away from colour mixing, think about smaller light sources then a PAR, or a moving light for things you want to achieve. Think about 12V Dichroic Halogens (Downlighters) for instance. You'll get the shadows you want, and can be mounted in spot units that look like theatre lighting (Birdies) that are relatively inexpensive.

 

If you want to do a moon or sun box, go for it, find a way of making it run up a track behind your fabric, and another one down the other side. Same for the moon, or use the same ones, reset, with a different colour setting. A 12V Halogen Dichroic well dimmed into it's orange level of dim from it's brightness MIGHT work as a rising/setting sun, but you need to try it to decide if it works for you.

 

It's all about experimentation for you. We can give you some ideas, and places to look at for ideas, but from here, use google, search the techniques we suggest, look at pictures of the equipment we suggest, and decide which way you want to go.

 

Your budget is not insubstantial for what you want to achieve, in fact I'd say you have pitched into a very good budget level for it, and will get a great result in the end. If you have any questions we'll be here. Like Paulears says, it's interesting.

 

What's the layout called? Is it online on a club website anywhere so we can look at it?

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