Frequent luminaire failures

[Heptagon]

The theatre we are hiring is having what seems to me to be a very large number of lighting failures - about 15 (of a total of 44) luminaires have failed in the years 2019 to now (and the theatre was dark for much of 2020). Since the lights were installed in mid 2018, and they are high quality lights (Selecon PL-Profile Mark II and Pl-Fresnel Mark II and a Selecon PL- CYC), this seems an excessive failure rate.

The theatre owners have solved their problem by deducting the cost of repair of failed units from our bond.

The failure rate is approximately what we could have expected for tungsten bulbs - about one per 3 week run, but the cost of repairs is an order of magnitude higher.

The failures are of different types - sometimes the power supply, sometimes other parts, but we haven't been given the details.

So - is this a reasonable failure rate? (The units life expectancy is 50,000 hours)

Is it usual to charge for repairs of LED luminaires? This makes it a very expensive venue.

Can anyone suggest why these are failing so often?

(Note - that the venue owners require that the lighting units are left ON 24/7, and this means that the fans are running 24/7/365).

(Note also that we have never seen a light fail - in fact during the last 2 play seasons the light that failed was not used at all in the plot - that is to say it was never lit up, but of course it was powered up).

 

Edited September 5, 2022 by paulears
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[Junior8]

Find a different venue. Edited July 23, 2021 by Junior8

[indyld]

If the units are running permanently and not maintained and properly cleaned, then failure rates are gonna seem high.

 

PSU, LEDs and drivers all fail which makes a mockery of quoted lamp hours from the sales guff and the supposed 'eco' nature of all this kit people are told to buy into. Repairing LED units is complex and costly and it's unlikely the venue is in a position to do it meaning they are paying top whack to get anything working again.

 

However, none of this is your problem but that of the venue.

Edited July 23, 2021 by indyld

[timsabre]

How are the fixtures powered, I know a venue which powered LED fixtures from dimmer channels set to full and that caused a lot of power supply failures in the fixtures.

[Shez]

Worth checking the supply voltage in the venue if you can. If it's at the higher end of the tolerance, it'll stress the (24/7) PSUs more than if it was a bit lower.

[J Pearce]

I’ve had a fully LED rig in 4 concert halls for 4 years now. Due to the infrastructure and building use all fixtures are powered 24/7.

 

I’ve had 2 dead PSUs (ETC D40s), and 4 dead drivers (Arcs house lights) in that time. Those were all warranty fixes, but the install is now out of warranty. Maintaining and repairing LED fixtures is not something many venues will be able to do in house, unlike tungsten fixtures which rarely needed much more than standard hand tools.

 

I’m surprised your repairs haven’t been under warranty, with the rig only just hitting 3 years old? You do seem to have a high failure rate, I’d suggest a proper check on the supply arrangement.

[Junior8]

. Maintaining and repairing LED fixtures is not something many venues will be able to do in house, unlike tungsten fixtures which rarely needed much more than standard hand tools.

 

And not very many at that.

 

This seems very similar to that period in the 1970s when the coin machine trade was changing over from largely mechanical and electromechanical to full electronic.It was a steep learning curve for many an old field engineers, the trade press was full of training articles. With LED rigs I'd be well out of my repairing depth now...

 

The reason I gave the rather flip answer earlier though is that nobody should be expected to fund repairs without a full explanation of why, how it their responsibility, and why it has cost what it has.

 

 

Edited July 23, 2021 by Junior8

[Heptagon]

Find a different venue.

 

Not an easy option I am afraid.

[Brian]

What do Selecon say?

[musht]

Seems like someone translating old style contract, hirer responsible for consumables, like lamps. New contract just adds an allowance in at new prices.

 

Recording contracts used to use a clawback for damaged in transit pressings when shellac 78s were fragile, they kept the clawback in when damage free vinyl took over...

 

Mortality rate sounds extreme, are other hirers losing a lite every 3 weeks?

 

Certainly be talking to Selecon directly about perceived damage to their reputation.

[adam2]

Most likely reasons in my view for the failure rate are, in order of likelihood.

 

24/7 Operation, wearing out the fans, sucking more dust and fluff into the lights, and stressing the SMPSUs by continual operation.

 

Being operated from dimmers set to 100% which is not the same as "hard power"

 

High mains voltage, at or even a little above the permitted figure, especially overnight when the load on the DNO network is less. The upper limit is 253 volts (110% of 230 volts)

 

Dishonest persons are introducing failed lights from elsewhere and stealing the good ones. (mark them in some discreet way, or apply an anti tamper seal to the safety wire.)

 

The lights are chinese fakes or copies and not actually made by the reputable brand whose branding they carry.

[Ynot]

I'm very unclear as to why ANY venue (looking for clarity from Jon Pearce on his supporting statement there) would have LED fixtures powered 24/7.

OK - if there's a need for ambient lighting for the exterior perhaps (though that through the day would also seem OTT) but indoors, when a stage only really needs illumination there's an event in progress (or setup/reh) I'm at a loss to understand why that's the norm.

 

Our rig - around 60 to 70% LED now - is only powered when it's needed. All switched via relays from the booth inside, and the outside wall-washers are on a timer/light sensor arrangement so they only light up when it darkens.

[J Pearce]

For us, our GDS Arcs fixtures are the energy efficient work light system as well as house and platform lighting so live powered 24/7 to run off PIR and BMS control.

 

Our ETC fixtures live powered 24/7 as the install contractor left no reasonable means to turn them off (short of throwing breakers on the dimmer/distro racks) and the lighting desks are available self service to non technical staff and students throughout the building opening hours.

 

Yes it should be different, but it isn’t and contracts/budgets don’t allow for remedial work. Been there, had those discussions.

 

I should add - when this was brought up with the installers their response was that ETC rated the fixtures for 24/7 power in architectural installs, so as far as they were concerned it was compliant with the manufacturer’s spec

[Bryson]

This is entirely self serving, but the vast majority of you aren't in our target market so I don't feel too bad: This is exactly the type of issue that a good theatre consultant's set of specifications / design drawings would forestall....

[J Pearce]

You’re not wrong Matt.

Sadly my involvement with the venue started at handover, rather than at specification stage. There was a consultant involved but the installer seemed to have more weight in lighting than the consultant.