Basic information on Induction Loop Systems.

[BML]

I have no hearing in my left ear and only a very restricted hearing in my right ear and as a result I rely heavily on Induction Loop Systems in any public hall I visit. I visit our village hall for a number of occasions such as the old peoples club and when ever I ask the organisers to switch the Induction Loop on I'm ignored and the last time it was by being told that the system works with either a PA set up or an Induction Loop setup so the Induction Loop loses out yet our village church manages to operate both so are they talking rubbish or what. There are many of the old peoples club whom I spot wearing hearing aids but like so many people they are to embarrassed to question those in charge of the village hall. I realise the village hall committee are all volunteers and mostly still working so I'm trying to summon up the courage to offer to accept responsibility for sorting this matter out but I need some information such as:

 

Are Induction loop systems really constructed so that the user is given a choice between PA or Induction Loop?

 

What would it cost to bring an expert in to check the Induction Loop system out.

 

In the event that the system is past it what would be the cost to replace it in a reasonably large hall?

[Stuart91]

Are Induction loop systems really constructed so that the user is given a choice between PA or Induction Loop?

 

No, the induction loop driver can take the same signal as the amplifier that's driving the PA speakers in the hall. Usually one mixer takes the microphones etc. and feeds the resultant mix into both loop and PA.

 

What may have happened in your situation is that two separate systems have been installed at different times, and the hall committee aren't able to integrate them.

 

 

What would it cost to bring an expert in to check the Induction Loop system out.

 

In the event that the system is past it what would be the cost to replace it in a reasonably large hall?

 

You'd probably be best to find a local installation company that can troubleshoot the system and help with a solution. It doesn't sound like a desperately complicated scenario so could be handled adequately by a small firm or solo operator. I'm far too far away to tackle it for you but there may be others on the forum who are nearer and would throw their hat in the ring.

 

Might be worth having a look at the existing kit and see if the people who installed it left any stickers with their contact details. That would at least give the opportunity to ask what they envisaged the system(s) doing in the first place, and if they are already familiar with the venue they may be able to price up some remedial work without needing a site visit.

[timsabre]

If the church has a PA system with loop they may (or may not) have someone who knows a bit about it who could help you in the village hall. Might be worth asking?

 

The main problem with induction loops is getting a good useful signal into them - if it's just one person speaking into a microphone then it's easy. If it's a few people having a chat with no mics or one mic between them then it's a lot harder. Many village hall type systems will have a single mic up above the stage whose sole purpose is to drive the induction loop but you often don't get a good signal in the loop that way.

[richardash1981]

Would second tim's point about getting a good signal in.

 

There is a mailing list on Yahoo about Induction Loops etc:https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Loops_and_Telecoils/infowhich has an archive, and some good knowledgeable people on it who are happy to answer questions etc. The files section of the group has some press items on the very basics of what a loop is and how it works which might be useful to supply to the hall team.

 

Re: costs:

The loop installation itself is two things:

1. a physical loop of cable round the building
2. a Loop Amplifier (or Loop Driver) which amplifies the signal into it.

The loop of cable is cheap to buy (it's nothing special, just single core insulated wire which is thick enough), but labour costs for running it round the building (or finding and fixing damage) can be significant. On the other hand, it's nothing which a reasonably competent amateur can't deal with because it is all low voltage cabling.

The amplifier tends to be expensive if bought new, because there is a relatively small market for them. On the other hand, many of the older ones are built like tanks and eminently repairable. They also pop up on places like Ebay for not a lot of money if you have some patience filtering out all the little cheap modern units which are only suitable for domestic-sized rooms.

Thinking again about the statement you report "the system works with either a PA set up or an Induction Loop setup", one thought (apart from not understanding how to use what it there): It is possible for a PA system not designed to co-exist with an Induction Loop to pick up the signal from the loop, possibly rather louder than the signal from the PA system microphones! This effectively makes the Induction Loop into an extra (unwanted and uncontrollable) microphone on the PA, which then causes feedback. The solution to this has to be on the PA system side (to make it not pick up the loop signal), but these days should not be expensive to achieve.

[Whiskers]

When you "ask for the loop system to be switched on" are there microphones and such already in use at all places where people will speak or play? If not you are asking please get the microphones, stands and cables out and set them all up then balance all the levels then turn the system on, and by the time you as a participant / audience member arrive there is little time to do all those things and possibly drill the "performers" how to work with all this extra stuff. And then there are your local problems about the two systems not co existing, that could be anything from not enough microphones, that the PA mixer is so basic it has no line out, that the loop is inducing back into the PA (as per Richardash)

 

As others above have stated that getting a good signal in is the key to a system working well, in a general purpose hall that may cope with many layouts and styles of performance there may not be the skilled people to set up everything for all the different possibilities, having a few fixed microphones somewhere in the room will only give an indifferent sound quality at best. Church systems are not just "switched on " The services are similar each time but getting the system (and participants) right may have taken years of small improvements.

 

I wish it was as simple as turning a switch, then we would not have to spend years learning all the stuff, never have to get there early to set it all up and then we could be the first ones in the pub after the event and not the last!

 

[Jivemaster]

If your/their system works as either loop or PA then it's 1/broken or 2/ badly installed and either way it's not fit for purpose.

 

A loop system is simple it's just an amplifier feeding a large coil of wire (probably round the floor edge). The loop is subject to damage when carpets are fitted or floors washed or buffed.

Feeding the amplifier is totally "garbage in garbage out" and the hard of hearing (or whatever today's PC term is(it will be different tomorrow)) need a very clean feed usually from well placed and well mixed microphones.

 

Sadly unless there is a significant body of people wanting the loop for their use and saying so clearly, no-one is going to bother to spend the money to either understand how the system works and/or get it mended.

 

Options include mending the system yourself -with permission- learning the competencies if needed, Or voting with your feet/wallet and going elsewhere.

[mac.calder]

I am not up to speed with UK regs, however I believe there is a statutory requirement for hearing assistance in the building regulations (including adherence with BS8300)... so there is certainly an obligation on their part to ensure accessibility.

 

You mention they are already using a PA (ie presenters are mic'ed up and being amplified). If that is the case I would almost guarantee that it is a user error issue over an equipment issue. You know that they have a loop - so I am assuming they have the relevant signage (which is how you know there is a loop I am assuming) - then they are really opening themselves up by not providing the service. How big a fuss you want to make about it though is certainly up to you.

 

Any PA hire or installation company should be able to troubleshoot a loop for you with minimal fuss, in minimal time. Most installations I have seen where there are loop issues, the following are the issues (in order of most common to least common):

 

• Loop amplifier has no power (unplugged or turned off)
  
• Loop amplifier has no signal (unplugged, mixer mis-configured)
  
• Gain on loop amplifier has been turned right down
  
• Short/open circuit on the loop
  

 

The top two are by far the most common - either people were getting weird hum induced into the system - and instead of troubleshooting, just turned off the loop amp, or needing the power socket, or the output from the mixer and unpatching it.

 

The only time I have seen properly installed loops getting shorted (or open circuited) has been when tradies have put a saw through the loop cable. Poorly installed under-carpet loops I've seen a few more failures - but generally, loops are low tech and therefore unlikely to just up and die.

Edited April 23, 2019 by mac.calder

[bruce]

... or gently remind the hall owners or management committee that, while they may or may not have a strict legal requirement to comply with the DDA and Equality acts, they certainly have a moral obligation to do so, especially if, as you say, the hall is regularly used by (eg) an old people’s club

[BML]

Many thanks for all of the answers and suggestions which I would never have thought of giving any consideration to. I will now create a short note to the Village Hall Committee and await their response.

[sandall]

Any PA hire or installation company should be able to troubleshoot a loop for you with minimal fuss, in minimal time.

A Google or Yellow Pages search should throw up a few sound installation companies in your area. Some may charge for a site visit; others may be happy to look for free, either as a public service or in the hope of a bit of work. Like many others I don't charge churches, church halls or schools for an initial inspection (though I may well hope there's a job in it).

[Biskit]

To add to a point made earlier about loop systems sometimes interfering with PA, another element can be that some electric instruments (certain electric/bass guitar pickups seem prone to this, as do older keyboards/synths) can pick up the loop signal. I've seen on many occasions a scenario where a band sets up and find that they are getting strange noises in their instruments. Eventually someone will suggest turning off the loop system to see if it helps. Problem goes away, gig goes ahead with loop switched off. At our venue some bands ask as soon as they arrive (or have on their rider) that loop is to be switched off. We leave it on, and 9 times out of 10 have no problem. However some clearly perceive a potential problem, perhaps from having experienced a poorly set up system in the past. I'm not saying it's right - but is a reality.

[Simon Lewis]

Many thanks for all of the answers and suggestions which I would never have thought of giving any consideration to. I will now create a short note to the Village Hall Committee and await their response.

 

I hope you get somewhere with this...!

 

Whilst the Equality Act does apply to charities, community groups etc., quoting the law (or even bringing a court case) can be a bit of a blunt tool.

As ably explained above, there may be a host of reasons why it's not "easy" to run the loop and or PA, and there's no guarantee that the loop was designed well or installed correctly.

 

However, this is all about people and relationships... for the committee and organisers to not only recognise legal and moral requirements, but to have empathy with those with accessibility issues and ensure they are included.

There's an onus on the technical providers to install solutions which work effectively for the users and non technical operators.

 

There is a scheme run by the Institute of Communication and Sound Engineers that will assess non working loop systems. It may be worth you checking out with one of their assessors?

 

ISCE Scheme

 

 

[Shez]

Sadly I've encountered far more badly "designed" and installed loop systems than effective ones. Many companies will claim to be able to install them but then simply run a cable around the perimeter of the floor and stick a mic in the ceiling. Neither of which is optimum.

 

Getting a company like Ampetronics involved will produce much better results (I've no connection other than being a happy customer). They can design a system that will provide the right signal level where it's needed and, crucially, keep the signal away from where it's not wanted. As others have said, some guitar pickups and even some mics are susceptible to picking up the loop signal so keeping it away from any "performance" area is important.

[dbuckley]

Every time a hearing loop topic comes up, I'm waiting for a comment from Simon, safe in the knowledge that somewhere there is a keyboard rotting from the effects of diet coke being blurted all over it as a response to one of the funniest technical comments of all time, one unlikely to be topped...

[Simon Lewis]

It's a reputation that's hard to live up to... :-)