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What Electrical qualifications do you have?


tonytech

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Morning all.

I work in a school as a physics technician and "Head of Lighting"

"Head of Audio" and "Head of general stage stuff" seems to be on my contract in invisible ink that only the Head of Drama can see.

 

Seriously though, I've been asked what qualifications I have?

Apart from tallascope, ladder, scaff and working at height I dont have any formal qualifications that would be much use. Equivalent A level Physics and 2years of a 4year BSc Electrical and Electronic Eng.

I have done a portable appliance testing course, and just wonder what formal qualifications are available?

 

Ta.

T

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Er, you work for an educational establishment, so the most up to date and relevant data is in your own building! Not sure what an equivalent to A Level physics means, and sadly the incomplete degree also doesn't really count. The good thing is that schools are always looking for their staff to gain qualifications and usually fund them because it looks good in the inspections and on their 'score card'.

 

Are there any 6th form courses that currently run, that you could do in spare time? Looking really at Level 3. You must have some paper quals to have got on the Bsc course? Is there a chance you could complete that while working in the school - remote learning and then just go for the exams? There are always courses on offer to educational employees. If your Physics is some kind of equivalent, why not take the exam in that - you probably wouldn't even need to go to classes. Any BTECs at your place? How about doing a teaching qualification - schools often promote these to staff so you can legitimately take a few classes for them. Cert Ed/PGCEs are usually available.

 

Maybe you could do a 'real' electricians course if you fancy something practical - maybe your local college, and paid for by your school. You have tons of options - who's in charge of staff development? Go and bang on their door.

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To clarify, My A level Physics equivalent is an OND in Technology (from the late 1970s) A mish mash of Electronics, Elec Eng, Mech Eng, Materials Science, Fluid Dynamics, Maths and a bit of Economics thrown in.

I'm happy with the theory and practice of rigging a lighting bar from a Mechanical and Electrical perspective. I understand power factor, protective earth impedance, reactance, 3phase systems and rigging slings (though I've never had cause to use one)

 

Although I love learning, I think I'm a bit long in the tooth for a Teaching qualification (59 this year) or redoing my degree(which was out of date when I started). Unfortunately no BTEC here.

The ABTT courses look good, but I doubt I'll get time off to attend or persuade school to pay.

The Head of Lighting gets me a small allowance for a hell of a lot of work (admittedly very enjoyable) and I'm worried someone has worked out that sometimes I plug a table lamp into a 13A socket without a suitable qualification.

T

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

To clarify, My A level Physics equivalent is an OND in Technology (from the late 1970s) A mish mash of Electronics, Elec Eng, Mech Eng, Materials Science, Fluid Dynamics, Maths and a bit of Economics thrown in.

I'm happy with the theory and practice of rigging a lighting bar from a Mechanical and Electrical perspective. I understand power factor, protective earth impedance, reactance, 3phase systems and rigging slings (though I've never had cause to use one)

 

Although I love learning, I think I'm a bit long in the tooth for a Teaching qualification (59 this year) or redoing my degree(which was out of date when I started). Unfortunately no BTEC here.

The ABTT courses look good, but I doubt I'll get time off to attend or persuade school to pay.

The Head of Lighting gets me a small allowance for a hell of a lot of work (admittedly very enjoyable) and I'm worried someone has worked out that sometimes I plug a table lamp into a 13A socket without a suitable qualification.

T

 

 

do a BS7909 awareness course, 3 days and well worth it

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Number one tip for getting them to pay for a course. Link it to safety, or improving or maintaining safety. The 7909 course would be a good example - it is specifically for temporary events - so those cascaded 13a cables across the sports field are now effectively banned since temporary electrics awareness has become important. I bet nobody at your place has that qualification - so getting it to comply with regs makes a good case. I'm sure you could find a few regular things you do that should come under these regs, and point out how it would have been bad to have been found out. Clearly that's a small overstatement, but in schools, once pointed out unskilled people panic. If it's something that is easy to just ban they will, but if it's the head's pet project - your course fees miraculously appear - financed by obscure budgets you may not even know exist. Worked well for me for my period in education. Sigh deeply and say how it's a shame we'll have to stop the charity event we always hold in July because nobody has the XYZ certificate. Never failed.
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Number one tip for getting them to pay for a course. Link it to safety, or improving or maintaining safety. The 7909 course would be a good example - it is specifically for temporary events - so those cascaded 13a cables across the sports field are now effectively banned since temporary electrics awareness has become important. I bet nobody at your place has that qualification - so getting it to comply with regs makes a good case. I'm sure you could find a few regular things you do that should come under these regs, and point out how it would have been bad to have been found out. Clearly that's a small overstatement, but in schools, once pointed out unskilled people panic. If it's something that is easy to just ban they will, but if it's the head's pet project - your course fees miraculously appear - financed by obscure budgets you may not even know exist. Worked well for me for my period in education. Sigh deeply and say how it's a shame we'll have to stop the charity event we always hold in July because nobody has the XYZ certificate. Never failed.

In my experience schools [in particular for the summer fete] seem to rely on PAT stickers as a safe practice system.

The alarm bells ring when I'm presented with a JoJo style domestic reel for the PA system and as described above it frequently consists of a series of similar cables, often feeding multiple stalls from the daisy chain including the tea tent with an urn or two.

It's rare that I go to these events without having done a site survey and my own mains cables and I've lost count of the number of times I've sorted their system.

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I did my BS7909 in February / March and I think it was really useful... but I have a background in electrical engineering and so I knew most of the theory. There were quite a lot of people on the course who struggled who didn't have that same background.

I felt that, while the course gave me a lot more knowledge about the application of electricity in live events, the training about testing was cursory at best. Because of that, in September I did my C&G 2391-52 and am in the process of joining a competent person scheme.

BS7909 is a good shout, but personally I found it lacking.

 

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C&G 2391-52 seems to be about 1200 + VAT added on to 495 + VAT for 7909 course , over 2K in training costs and guess you already thought you were qualified!

 

Someone has to pay for all this, the end client.

 

Concern about things like 7909 courses is exactly above, possible to get impressive looking certificate without fully understanding what to actually do.

 

As far as I understand its a 2 day course without examination, perhaps Clive could do a distance learning Youtube course at a reduced price...

 

But by repetition and marketing it`s becoming accepted as a `must have`

 

https://www.richmond.gov.uk/media/7466/bs7909_guidance_document.pdf

 

"The important aspect is that it has been requested and that someone has had

to complete and sign the certificate indicating they’ve accepted responsibility for the

temporary system."

 

Is a more realistic view, someone else is in the frame if it goes Pete Tong.

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C&G 2391-52 seems to be about 1200 + VAT added on to 495 + VAT for 7909 course , over 2K in training costs and guess you already thought you were qualified!

 

Someone has to pay for all this, the end client.

 

Concern about things like 7909 courses is exactly above, possible to get impressive looking certificate without fully understanding what to actually do.

 

As far as I understand its a 2 day course without examination, perhaps Clive could do a distance learning Youtube course at a reduced price...

 

But by repetition and marketing it`s becoming accepted as a `must have`

 

https://www.richmond...ce_document.pdf

 

"The important aspect is that it has been requested and that someone has had

to complete and sign the certificate indicating they've accepted responsibility for the

temporary system."

 

Is a more realistic view, someone else is in the frame if it goes Pete Tong.

 

Yeah, I studied electrical engineering at uni and then went on to work as an electrical engineer in the railway so I went on the 7909 course on the basis that it was basically a tick in the box and quickly discovered that it wasn't!

To be competent at something, you need the theoretical knowledge and experience of working with it in the real world; but as I said earlier, there were a lot of people on my course who just didn't fill me with confidence that they had either. BS7909 doesn't teach electrical theory - it teaches how to apply BS7671 to a temporary power system. BS7909 has to be all things to all people: it covers design, installation and testing of some very complex systems. There are things that we do in this industry that are very specialised - for example, exporting power between electrical environments - and that require a lot of thought. With the greatest will in the world, it's more than a 3-day course can cover for someone well versed in electricity; for someone with little prior knowledge, it's probably a total waste of time.

 

I decided to do my 2391-52 because I felt like I was testing stuff without the knowledge of what I was actually testing. Why do we do it how we do it? I understand the reasoning behind only testing a sample of the circuits you put in, but I don't like the idea and I don't think I've worked with anybody who doesn't at least aim for 100% testing. Fair enough, there might be limitations to what you can test; but I don't like the idea of going and testing the bare minimum. Also, I'm starting to come to the conclusion that we should start testing earth spike resistances, which is something that was brushed over on my 7909 course (and not covered in great detail in my 2391 either, in fairness). The earthing to something by putting a clamp onto it is a nice idea, but again not necessarily practicable in the real world: how do you know that the thing you're clamping to is actually earthed at all?

You state that the cost is about £2k. I'd suggest more. In reality, you need your 18th edition to be effective (you're signing off to the 18th edition after all). And you need the literature. Then you need equipment: a multifunction tester (or lots of individual testers) and test leads. These don't come cheap. I would estimate that I've spent £5k on this stuff over the last year and there's still things I need to buy (eg, earth spike test kit). I will hold my hands up to buying things that are nicer than I need (Megger 1741 when I could have gone for a cheaper model, matching plug adaptors to lots of different types of plugs rather than the slightly cheaper option of just building plugs to 13a sockets, etc).

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As far as I understand its a 2 day course without examination, perhaps Clive could do a distance learning Youtube course at a reduced price...

 

The 7909 course that is arguably worth anything is 3 days and includes elements of assessment of each section, including practical safe isolation and basic test procedures. There is a lot that could be done via distance but there are issues with the elements of assessment (and resulting certification of the candidate) that somewhat reduces the possibilities. Firstly, the practical elements would need to be assessed via remote demonstration and using equipment that the candidate may not have access to. It's also harder for the tutor to control the risks. The current preferred safe isolation test is to be 'shown' to the assessor by the candidate and not just 'talked about' - although both methods could arguably assess the learning. The testing and fault identification is a bit different due to the gear involved and would present a lot of challenges to achieve consistently and equitably over distance.

 

The rest of the course (as it stands) could easily be taught and assessed through distance methods BUT an accreditation body is unlikely to be keen on taking test scores from 'random internet user 1' and making assumptions about the competence of a named certificate receiver. They tend to like to control the exam environment through various means including attendance of an exam centre etc. or means of verification. Although open book, there are parts that are 'calculator only' and again lend themselves to a controlled environment that is harder to ensure over distance and/or asynchronously.

 

The cost side of things doesn't make a lot of difference if you are running distance/online learning properly as, while it cuts down travel and venue costs for both tutor and student, everything else still needs doing including paying for any accreditation.

 

 

I haven't ruled out running 7909 related stuff online, but I have also yet to find out how much time/effort would be needed to get and keep the accreditation that would make the product worthwhile in the eyes of learners and their managers.

 

 

On a side note, SparkNinja's free 18th Edition YouTube series is probably nearly all someone needs to hit a pass in the exam (well, that and the expensive books). No doubt Clive could do similar for 7909 (although the current 7909 training is not a walk through the book) if so inclined but the candidate still needs assessing.

Edited by indyld
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I'd be very cautious about trying to provide remote training as opposed to being directly with the people being taught. It's important to be able to see that someone really does understand what you're saying. At the modern slideshow courses there are typically three types of attendee:-

 

1. People who interact and make comments that show an understanding of the subject being discussed.

2. People who make arrogant statements that show supreme confidence in their flawed electrical knowledge.

3. The quiet people who don't even understand the basics and are just going through the mill.

 

I attended one of James Eades presentations and compared to many other presentations it was actually very good. I'm not sure what his career history is, but I'm guessing it's less practically biased and more from a university electrical engineering direction. His involvement with the event industry seems to be similar to my own these days, with just a few events a year to keep my hand in. He does know his theory, and I really don't envy him the responsibility of being in the position of having to issue certification on the basis that some people could lose work without it, but may not have enough deep technical understanding to justify it.

 

Those people with a BS7909 certificate will then potentially be put under pressure to work on electrical equipment and fault scenarios they don't understand because they're "qualified".

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