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Philips Selecon PL1 Range


vinntec

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Does anyone else have a number of Philips Selecon PL1 range in their rig (PLCYC1, PLFRESNEL1, PLPROFILE1)? If so I would be interested to hear from you.

 

Since installation (we currently have 18 of them) they are fairly regularly tripping the hot power circuits when power is turned on - they all come on at once as soon as main power is applied due to access restrictions. The breakers are rated way above both the total possible load and the inrush current which Philips gave us a while ago. We recently split them into two hot power circuits but both still trip from time to time but perhaps less often.

 

They are all on a single phase of a three phase supply (which probably isn't well balanced). While they usually reset after first trip no problem, we would like to get to the bottom of what is wrong so would be interested to know if anyone else has a similar problem.

We are wondering if the lanterns might have a poor power factor, but as it appears to be related to power on only - as they don't trip in normal running - this will be very hard to measure without some very expensive kit.

 

I am going to have another go with Philips technical support but just wondering if anyone has seen anything similar or has some sensible suggestions?

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Are the MCB's type B by any chance?

10A Type C x 2 which are the slowest to allow for a power surge on startup. They appear to have reduced the number of trips but hasn't stopped them completely (although we also split from a single MCB to two separate ones at the same time). No trips in normal running just power up which is a big switch on one phase.

 

 

 

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I'm surprised a C type doesn't stay in unless the power calcs are incorrect, the voltage a way off or some other kind of installation issue. A C type has a curve of five to ten times the sticker rating.

 

A venue I know had similar with some LED moving wash lights. In their case, it was that the startup power totalled more than they'd assumed.

Edited by indyld
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You just need to split them down further. The switch mode power supplies in LED fixtures can have an enormous inrush current if you power up a lot of them together - you're basically charging up a big capacitor off the rectified mains in each one, if you happen to hit the peak of the mains cycle when you turn on then it's at its worst. SMPSU will have a thermistor on it to help limit the inrush but it can still add up to a lot if you have a number of fixtures.
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You just need to split them down further...

 

To add to this - when we have this problem in temporary systems running on only a few breakers, one solution is to stagger the startup procedures in any way we can including breaking and making connections etc. Obviously, this may not be an option but it's worth any tech considering that the issue can be removed by not starting everything at once. :-)

 

FWIW I've not looked into the specs of the PL range, but I'd expect 9 LED 'fixtures of substance' on one 10A MCB to create issues on startup on site.

Edited by indyld
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FWIW I've not looked into the specs of the PL range, but I'd expect 9 LED 'fixtures of substance' on one 10A MCB to create issues on startup on site.

I would too. I've got some little LEDJ 7Q5 fixtures and 8 of them will sometimes take out a 16A C type trip if all connected on one circuit.

 

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Philips originally quoted 1.1A inrush surge per fixture when we first reported this problem, which is nearly double the full on current (0.65A). We have used this as a worst case to split into two 10A chunks which should work with all 18 in the rig (which is hardly ever the case but they still trip). It is almost impossible to test in a logical way as the MCB is reluctant to trip once it has warmed up from the first one! So it's a Catch-22 situation trying to isolate any particular fixture that is drawing more than it should especially if it simply turns out that it is more than 1.1A inrush or the power factor is out of kilter for some reason - but both of these occur only instantaneously so cannot easily be measured.

 

We might end up just splitting a few more times to bypass this problem, but we shouldn't have to guess what the true surge current from these fixtures actually is.

 

However the LEDJ 7Q5 example is an interesting one as they are only supposed to draw about 0.3A each and are convection cooled. Maybe we just don't understand enough about what is, or might be, lurking inside these fixtures which the MCBs don't like!

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Those figures by Philips have to be wrong. Inrush is measured in hundreds of amps, it is only for milliseconds but enough to cause a trip. They have either misunderstood the question and given you the wrong figure, or their testing is incorrect.

 

Basically inside the fixture there is a bridge rectifier making the mains into dc, which then charges a large capacitor. It is the current to charge this cap on first switch on which causes the inrush.

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Maybe we just don't understand enough about what is, or might be, lurking inside these fixtures which the MCBs don't like!

 

For those of us that spend time inside kit, what's there isn't terribly mysterious regardless of the model - it's usually some form of SMPS these days that takes the mains AC and turns it into various DC voltages to run the processing and the LEDs. It also can have active Power Factor Correction. As Tim says, the charging of the capacitor and the resulting inrush of current is meant to be somewhat limited by the NTC thermistor.

 

As this isn't an uncommon 'feature' of piling up switch mode power supplies onto a single breaker, it may be a bit of a wild goose chase to seek to find a problem fixture. The 1.1A figure is kinda mysterious, I wonder what that is meant to refer to?

 

Edit to add: It's a shame to see that Selecon has caught Strand-itis these days and that trying to find support and information on the fixtures is unsurprisingly dreadful.

Edited by indyld
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maybe they got confused and used the power factor of the units to get the inrush,a pf of 0.6 isnt that unusual for smps,or maybe thought inrush and "at 110v" are the same thing

Philips quoted two figures for inrush current... 1.1A @ 240V and 1.3A @ 120V

 

 

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Does anyone else have a number of Philips Selecon PL1 range in their rig (PLCYC1, PLFRESNEL1, PLPROFILE1)? If so I would be interested to hear from you.

 

Since installation (we currently have 18 of them) they are fairly regularly tripping the hot power circuits when power is turned on - they all come on at once as soon as main power is applied due to access restrictions. The breakers are rated way above both the total possible load and the inrush current which Philips gave us a while ago. We recently split them into two hot power circuits but both still trip from time to time but perhaps less often.

 

They are all on a single phase of a three phase supply (which probably isn't well balanced). While they usually reset after first trip no problem, we would like to get to the bottom of what is wrong so would be interested to know if anyone else has a similar problem.

 

We are wondering if the lanterns might have a poor power factor, but as it appears to be related to power on only - as they don't trip in normal running - this will be very hard to measure without some very expensive kit.

 

I am going to have another go with Philips technical support but just wondering if anyone has seen anything similar or has some sensible suggestions?

 

In industry I had to deal with the same problem with high inrush currents blowing fuses. A simple hardware solution involves placing a low resistance ( say heating element from cooker or washing machine) in series with the load. Connecting the coil of a contactor across the mains at the feed side and using its Normally open contacts to short out the resistor. At the instant of power up the capacitive inrush current is limited by the resistor. Milliseconds later the contactor energises and its contacts then apply full mains to the load. The whole operation is over in the twinkling of the eye and the only downside is one audible click. be careful to mount the resistor such that it can dissipate its heat safely should the contactor fail to operate and encase the whole assembly. Remarks about the initial surge of SMPS being huge are very true. You say that the circuit breakers only seem to operate once and then all is well suggests that the capacitors are partially charged after the first attempt . Another explanation could be a bad/loose connection somewhere meaning that a succession of surge currents occur which the circuit breakers certainly will not like

 

 

 

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In industry I had to deal with the same problem with high inrush currents blowing fuses. A simple hardware solution involves placing a low resistance ( say heating element from cooker or washing machine) in series with the load.

 

When dealing with faulty SMPS, particularly ones that have ended with an element of 'bang' about them, I often set up a series load on the bench.

 

Back to the problem in the venue, there still could be something that creates additional 'bad stuff happening' and it would an interesting exercise to see if there was an identifiable cause that isn't just "oh, yeah, that always happens so we'll just have to split the circuit down still further".

 

My gut feeling is that its just normal and cumulative but eliminating poor connections (all the way back to the pole!), voltage issues, and using 'divide and decide' to eliminate the possibility of a rogue fixture(s) may set minds at rest.

 

E2A: Thinking about it, is it likely that voltage sag during the inrush would snowball to an extent with multiple, parallel culprits? Or is the inrush current just the sum of that of each unit?

Edited by indyld
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