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QLab and Eurolite Move mixer for musical management


Maxiride

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I've recently joined an amateur musical company in my local town.

For years so far two people managed the musics/sfx and the lighting control with a small not programmable DMX mixer and a VLC playlist for the audio.

 

The guy in the lights mixer worked as a madman by manually moving every slider for every light or group scene by scene and during the scenes themselves.

 

I'd like to elevate a bit the situation with my little knowledge and I've already introduced the use of QLab for the audio (sfx and music) which as been a great improvement from the VLC playlist.

I know I could program the lights with QLab too but I won't be able to adjust on the fly live during the play if needed as QLab light menu is clunky.

 

Hence I was wondering and brainstorming if the following makes any sense:

I could program into an eurolite move the needed scenes and then have QLab control via midi the mixer by firing up the scenes etc. Having the motorized sliders would allow me to make on the fly adjustments if needed and then just proceed over with QLab on the next sets with the cues.

 

Is this a overkill solution?

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My 2p - I'd suggest if you don't already have the Eurolite desk not to go down this route, unless you specifically want to have one person operating both sound and LX.

 

If you're not opposed to using PC control for lights over a physical desk then for the cost of the Eurolite you mention you could get a reasonable second hand laptop and a DMX dongle such as Chamsys or Avolites Titan One. Both of these options will offer much more power in the longer term with cue stacking, more universes (via ArtNet), easier to upgrade if you want a physical desk later on (shows are compatible), and IMO an easier to use interface.

 

May not work for you - but that's the way I would go!

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In the pro world, about the only people who automate everything like this (ignoring the budget) are theme parks and cruise ships, where show run into hundreds and each one is exactly the same and the lighting cues are glued to the soundtracks. They throw enormous funding at it, and for once, the cost of people is not the driving force - it's repeatability.

 

In theatre, while it would be nice to have one person running everything, it's more fluid. Does the lighting adjust the cue timing slightly because the scenery is taking just a little longer to set, or is the actor actually in the wings waiting to go on? The role of the DSM as the coordinator is still vital. Clearly you're a bit of a newcomer to lighting, so don't perhaps appreciate that manual one fader per light operation is perfectly normal and with only a few lights, a 50 year old two preset control is still perfectly suited to some productions - and they usually work on a two preset operational style - you set one set of faders while the other is active, and on cue, you move to the new one. Programming lighting is the big thing really - making decisions before the show starts, and frankly this needs proper software and something to connect out to the lights, or a hardware desk. These simple boxes with faders are what makes the job hard. Qlab is great for audio and video - AND replaying pre-programmed DMX, but it is not a lighting control because it's programming is just not how lighting controls normal work.

 

I assume your hardworking lighting people know about lighting? DO they want to be redundant? I've never met a lighting person who thought a replay system was a good idea. Your people do it for fun, so they actually want to do the job.

 

Realistically, for small scale theatre technical needs to be linked to people. The person mixing the sound is happy to have a better system to play in the music tracks and the sound effects - and once these are plonked into qlab, they work reliably and sound is good. Lighting is different. qlab cannot change the content of a cue. You never need to suddenly remove a trombone in a sound track, but when somebody bashes a light so it points somewhere disastrous, a proper lighting control will let the user type a few commands and it goes out. Maybe some subtle changes need tweaks during the show to cope with people standing in the wrong place? Qlab can't do this.

 

In amateur theatre sometimes you will have a DSM in charge, sometimes you won't - so the operators become critical for deciding exactly when things happen. Combining things really messes this up. Often just practically - qlab is not good at moving and changing cue timing while you are using it. Stopping the next lighting cue, and bring forward the next sound cue is doable, but danger prone.

 

There are a few truly professional software solutions to lighting which work for the lighting team, not against them. A small theatre in my part of the world did exactly what you have thought of doing. They hire their little theatre out to visiting companies and they now take in their own lighting and sound control because the expensive funded one stop shop system is unworkable from an operational viewpoint. I tried very hard to prevent them doing it, but the committee felt this new system would save the operators so much time and effort working the old system (which of course, the committee totally misunderstood) that I was ignored. They forgot that old is not necessary worse and new not always better. Their system is Mac computer based and the one person who was keen on the software as a control has left, leaving the current folk totally stuck - they had lights, sound and video projection comping from the MacBook. It's simply awful to have a theatre entering on one bit of software.

 

You mention you have only just joined and are now trying to help? My advice is to look to the people. Is the lighting madman actually good at it and happy?

manually moving every slider for every light or group scene by scene and during the scenes themselves

This is an effective and legitimate control system - and VERY effective and fluid. If the complexity gets too much - then buy a proper lighting control - which is NOT qlab.

 

If you every go to a big music event - you will see a madman working the lights, franticly wiggling faders - bashing buttons and working damn hard in every song. It's how lights are! They could record one show, and then press play - but they don't. Every show is slightly different - different enough to make automation 'less good'.

 

As a newcomer - there is also politics - what does the madman think about your idea?

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What desk do you currently have? It is VERY rare to have a "non programmable DMX desk" - pretty much all of them have some form of scenes at least - except for the REALLY small desks (talking 4-8 channels) - it may be that your operator LIKES to be hands on. Additionally I do not believe the Eurolite has motorised faders - so you cannot just 'reach across to adjust'

 

I used to work on a cruise ship (about 12 years ago now...) - it was all automated via timecode for the production shows (as Paul mentioned) - however a desk like the eurolite would have had no hope running these shows, even if we were dealing with a fixture count it could handle, it would REALLY struggle with some of the things that an operator can naturally do - or a more complex desk can program (such as individual fixture wait and fade times, individual fade curves etc).. And even with a high end desk (GrandMA and HogIII were the main desks I dealt with), high end show control software (Meyer CueControl, Medialon Showmaster and RSD ShowMan), synced backing tracks and a fully automated scenic rigging system - guaranteeing scenery hit is mark on time every time, not everything was automated. There were still manual cues - cues where as a lighting operator I used my judgement to control.

 

If you want to make the operators life easier, perhaps talk to them, see if they know the desk - it may be that their training was "Here is the desk... there ya go" and he figured out that pushing a fader up brings up a light. If they don't know the desk, maybe see about getting them some training. If they do know the desk, ask them if the desk is limiting them. If it is, maybe look at a desk upgrade option. PC based is a good option - Some of the PC based lighting desk solutions have an interface with a DMX in which would give you a relatively cheap control surface by plugging your existing desk into it.

 

QLab controlling a cheap desk is not a good solution. Removing an operator (aka volunteer) from an amdram society is also not a good idea. If you can't draft a lighting guy, then - and only then - would I consider automation.

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This is am-dram - the people doing sound & lighting are doing it because they want to. At one time, as well as the paid work, I was doing sound & lighting for 3 amateur groups, sound for 2 others, lighting for another & sound or lighting in a big amateur theatre. I did it because it was what I enjoyed, even if it was hard work at times, using whatever sound systems & (pretty basic) lighting desks (not "mixers") that were installed in the various venues, & bringing in whatever extra was needed for the shows.

 

Did the sound guy ask you to set up a "better" way of doing things, or did you just muscle in? Has the lighting guy suggested that he can't manage with his current desk & must have something new or he will give up? Perhaps he (I am assuming it's a "he") might be the person to ask about what is needed, rather than you trying to decide for him.

 

Trying to go 1-man-operation has all the problems Paul & Mac have already mentioned, but there are 2 other considerations as well; firstly that if the 1 person gets pissed-off, moves away or gets a new job, you've lost your whole sound & lighting crew (probably leaving behind a system nobody understands); secondly that having someone alongside you is not only companionable (solo operating can get very lonely), but it also gives you an extra pair of eyes when something goes off-script on stage, not to mention providing cover for pee-breaks or bar-runs.

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Thanks everyone for the input and the opinions it really helped me a lot to frame better the issue. The level of automation I was initial thinking of is indeed not the good way to go.

 

Today I helped preparing the cabling etc for the lights (the madman guy was not present and he is indeed in the position like "here is the mixer, do the lighting"). It has been a precious day as I've learnt that the guy works as a madman because of poor cabling imho.

 

He is instructed to operate 8 LEDs RGBWAU (red green blue white ambra UV) plus 4 white spotlights a smoke machine and two other "flood" lights, reading through the "lighting script" he receives with him I pointed out that 6 of the LEDs act as a group as they are always controlled together with the same setting.

 

As you all rightfully understood I'm new to the field but I took my time to read and watch several tutorials and introduction guides.

 

The LEDs are SDJ SG SLIMPAR7DL, just by reading the instruction manual I understood that they can be daisy chained, with a master and the salves after him. This way in the 5 channel working mode (RGBWA) 5 faders (which I previously wrongly called sliders) would control all of the available settings as if controlling 1 light.

 

 

As of now the lights are cabled as follows:

- 3 daisy chained LEDs (care: they are however not set as master and slaves nor on the same address hence occupying 3x5 channels as they reach the mixer as individual "entities")

- another 3 daisy chained LEDs as above with another 15 channels occupied

- the rest is rather normal and I won't discuss it further as the core issue of poor cabling that I see is the one above.

 

The guy I'm friendly calling the madman, when for instance turning on all Reds on the 6 LEDs (which are always all controlled the same) has to move 6 faders one for each LEDs, but since the channels comes in ascending order and the mixer has only 16 faders (two rows of 8) he has to constantly flip buttons and switches to reach the furthest channels. The sixth LEDs red fader lands on the 25th channel (given that the spotlights come last).

 

I tried to point out that the 6 LEDs could either:

- set on the same address

- chained as master and slaves (specific future of the SDJ I guess)

 

So that all of them would only occupy the faders 1 to 5, and to turn on, for instance, all the reds the poor man madman would have to only move fader 1, the response I got was a clueless answer as if the cabling guy didn't even knew that the SDJ have the option to set their address (nor what an address is) or that they have this master and slave setting plus a mere "we always did it like this and Peter (fictional madman name for the lighting guy) didn't complain".

 

So I'm recognizing that I may be too invasive indeed as a newcomer in suggesting improvements but at the same time I can't watch this nonsense without doing something. QLab with the Eurolite would have been overkill but also having each light as a separate fixture on the mixer when a bunch of them could be grouped is unbelievable.

 

 

 

Edit: tomorrow is the show day and I'm sure everything will flow normally as they always did it like so and they are accustomed to it. I'll try to speak to the madman mixer guy to at least point out the grouping feature and the advantage it would bring. I'll see what he thinks about it, given that he didn't ever questioned the cabling I suppose he doesn't know, nor documented himself on the subject so I suspect he doesn't even knew it was possible to group fixtures and was just instructed "move this and that".

 

Just wanted to add that the last fixture of every daisy chain doesn't have the 120ohm resistance applied (as I'm learning it should be applied to prevent backfires signals), don't know how much of a big deal it is with such short chains.

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Oh no! You've been suckered into buying some really useful lighting and didn't buy a proper controller, to run them! This probably isn't really the place for a tutorial, but with a lighting system designed to run dimmers, you can't just add clever lighting as indeed his fingers will need to have the dexterity of a concert pianist to work them, and even then it WILL go wrong. The real issue being the impossibility of using even one LED fixture with multiple channels properly in a manual mode. People had this back when DMX controlled first appeared. A manual control just cannot do basic, everyday things with multiple channels.

 

For seventy quid, you can get Magicq - and a dongle that will let you control the lights properly. You can get a time limited version for about a tenner if you want to try it out and the software is free. Your LED lights will then appear as a single light, that you can dim and brighten, and then change the colours and do the effect things very simply - AND - remember these as cues to be played back.

 

You can set every LED fixture to the same DMX number, that means they all do the same thing - which reduces the amount of channels your control needs to worry about, but that's a big limitation and takes you back to how lighting was in the 60s and 70s - washes that cover the entire stage.

 

Many people don't even know about the termination device at the end of the chain - many DMX systems are stable without it. Lots, sadly aren't. They only cost a couple of quid - so why not just buy one from somewhere like CPC?

 

Most of your members and certainly many of the audience will be well aware how vital lighting is to modern shows, so what you really need is somebody who is interested in lighting and knows what it can do. So much depends on your lighting man. If he is simply not interested enough to find these things out himself, then frankly, he's the wrong person for the job. Is there a local college doing BTECs in performing arts? If there is, ask them if one of their people might like to get involved as mixing technology with non -technologists is ALWAYS a disaster.

 

What worries me more is the entire design element. You say he is 'instructed' - don't you work on the usual am dram system where everyone does their own thing under direction? So the committee or similar want to put on the show and point somebody to direct it? Then this person says that end this point all the lights go off bar one leaving Johnny in a puddle of light in the middle. The lighting person then decides if any of the existing lights can do this and are in the right place - and if they are not, he or she moves one. They then go to the rehearsals and add in the other stuff required by the script - lighting or not lighting certain areas, changing colours, adding blackouts that snap or gently fade over so many seconds. All very basic everyday stuff and you seem to do it very differently - with the lighting madman being totally reactive, rather than adding things to the process in rehearsal - like "Wouldn't it be great if at the end of scene 3 if all the lights around the edges went down to a dark blue leaving Jane and Fred in a red light ready for John's big entrance - when everything suddenly goes bright white? The director says wonderful or says they hate it, and you move on.

 

Frankly, if the people aren't interested in this they need replacing.

 

What is your role? Stage Manager?

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Diplomacy is the key here. You admit you are a newcomer yet you label someone a madman. He might be happy with the way things are - frankly I much prefered running a show on a two preset board than any memory control. There was more interest and you really felt part of things. It's amateur, it's for fun, it doesn't matter, leave well alone.
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Wondering if the OP is based overseas by the use of some terms.

 

He seems to have missed the point that if you set the start address of all the LED's the same or in master slave mode, you then can't control them individually. Even if only providing a colour wash, you may need SL, SR, CS or wide for example.

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I suspect that Robin may be right that you are not UK-based, Frederico. In the UK the lighting for amateur groups is usually under the control of 1 person, often paid, who is responsible to the organising committee or the Artistic Director for all aspects of the lighting, including the choice of equipment & the rigging & cabling. He/she will sort out the lighting cues & usually, but not always, also operate the lighting desk. Sometimes the equipment is owned by the group, as in your case, but more usually it comes with the venue or is hired-in. People who regularly light for amateur & semi-pro groups often own the lights, & sometimes the desk, that they bring in, which saves on hire costs.

 

From what you write, & the very small list of equipment, I would assume your group are working in a very small space & that the lighting guy is just an operator, with no artistic input. As you appear to use 6 of your LED lights as a single group your idea of giving them all the same DMX Start address sounds very sensible. It is probably not how the more experienced of us would do things, but it keeps everything simple. Don't use Master/Slave - this is usually intended for use with a remote-control device, & probably won't work with DMX. But in the end, unless you want to take over the lighting yourself you are going to have to persuade the "madman" that you are on his side & are trying to make his life less stressful - good luck with that.

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With AmDram be very careful of the real finances of the society, as well as the politics. Sometimes one person donated an item or small group of items and this makes pushing the items or the person out rather fraught. Sometimes people go to that society because they actually LIKE what they do and how they do it, -don't change it too much or they may leave if they feel slighted or devalued.
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