Jump to content

Advice on winches


dan_42

Recommended Posts

Hello,

I work at a small community hall. We've been offered the opportunity to acquire some second hand electric winches, manufactured by Mole Richardson (UK) ltd in 1998. They appear to be in working order, obviously if we put them in we are going to have them installed and insured properly etc. I can't find any information about this company or the type of winch online, although I have found the manual for the electric motor they used (Seipee, an Italian manufacturer, still trading). I was wondering if anyone here had heard of this equpment, and if anyone would be able to give me any advice on this kind of thing. I'm reluctant to instal things that will be an burden, or you cannot get any spares for.

 

We have a lighting bar that is quite high up FOH, and have always had a desire to motorise it one day, but have never fully explored the implications and costs etc.

Thanks,

Dan

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No problem with second hand winches, apart from the tricky question of having them rated. I can suggest a firm who are really good, understand the weird things we do and are proper engineers. In fact, they always smile at my requests because my idea of safety is quite different from theirs. Mine do theatres and marine stuff. I worry about wanting to lift 500Kg from a point and then in their workshop they're crimping a cable the size of my arm in a huge machine. Makes my 6mm largest wire rope look feeble. Theirs is used to tow an oil rig! We tend to think about things as purely weight. They think about dynamic loads - the starting, the stopping and the braking. Mole were very common in TV studios for those shorter length bars, and to engineering people easy to verify and install and then give you a rating. You do need of course regular inspections. Let me know and I'll send you a phone number and they're up for general chats about projects. They cover the whole country, but miles matter of course.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are winches to pull, winches to lift/lower and winches to hold a load esp with people underneath. Make sure you know what yours are rated for, and use them for that. Some bars are winched to position then secured to steel fittings to avoid the winches carrying permanent loads.

 

Ask someone wise about the test and certification regime required in your environment. Perhaps a six monthly test regime would cost you significant money. Chains wear, if they need new chains/cables now are they still a good value.

 

Don't assume that winches will hoist level! with a cable winch the lift per turn varies according to the random way the cable lies. Learn about the distribution of loads onto pick points, it's perfectly counter intuitive don't make guesses without wisdom.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My first thoughts would be to ask why anyone would want to motorise an LX bar in a "small community hall". OK it might be really useful to you but who else uses the venue?Is everyone there on the same wavelength and will ALL those using the venue be safe to operate it?

 

It may be the best thing since sliced bread for you and a few others but in venues like yours my advice would be to keep it as simple and safe as humanly possible. I may be well off target, it is just what occurred to me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is everyone there on the same wavelength and will ALL those using the venue be safe to operate it?

 

One other thing to think about is what might happen in years to come. People move on, organisations change. Within a relatively short space of time there could be users (and management) with no idea how to operate the winches safely.

 

I've seen a similar situation several times where an enthusiastic individual has secured funding and support for an installation. Within a few years they've moved away and we're asked to put in something less complicated instead. Prime example was digital desks getting removed in favour of a simple analogue one.

 

It's a good argument for keeping things as simple as possible, especially true of things like motorised winches where periodic inspection and maintenance is crucial.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My first thoughts would be to ask why anyone would want to motorise an LX bar in a "small community hall".

Suppose that depends on what that community hall is.

 

I term my venue as a community theatre, run by volunteers. But we have 2 motorised LX trusses - one US and the other on advance bar FoH.

I specced them, after advice, and they're inspected annually. But I do NOT permit any company to hook up the control box unless I know that the person on their LX crew has been shown how to and what to look for as per safety guidelines.

 

I've been 'in charge' for over 25 years, and don't look as if I'm going to get let go any time soon..... :P :D

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Remember that architecturaly fixed beams are subject to limited regulation and testing, but a powered hoisting system is fully subject to LOLER and probably PUWER both of which require you to have knowledge, training, testing certification and insurance. Be very aware that lifts, motors, hoists etc have regular outgoings to check and prove their safety, wear items (inc chains, cables etc) will need periodic replacement with approved items, and all people using the system will need initial and refresher training. Every item in a lifting equipment should have a serial number attached or marked permanently and all items need log books and inspection documentation. You can't just buy shackles from Lidl.

 

Even if there was an assumed need for power lifting equipment, in a community venue the annual inspection cost may be prohibitive. If these items are good to use why is the current user releasing them? Failed test/inspection? Not manufacturer marked with serial numbers? or surplus to requirements.

Edited by Jivemaster
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you to everyone who has replied.

 

All the winches and the motors with them have serial numbers, but no inspection paperwork. They do still operate, however, and the technician claims they were regularly serviced. The building has been shut for a few years, and the new owners don't apparently have any interest in the theatre & apparently wouldn't mind being rid of them. Trying to be circumspect about the exact details, as they don't want the publicity.

Our FOH bar is quite high up; motorising it would potentially make servicing equipment easier, without having to drag the tallescope out FoH or get the rope/pulley out when we want to swap something. Also, people keep wanting to dangle things from the bar, for weddings etc. In the medium/long term, we are wondering how long traditional halogen lanterns will last in an era where LED/moving light technology is moving rapidly. We already have some moving lights (Strand Pirouttes) and they still work pretty well, but are becoming a bit old and occasionally rather tetchy.

 

I am keen, however, not to get sucked into a situation where something that looks nice and shiny ends up being more trouble and more expensive than it is worth (having been caught by digital lighting consoles that weren't necessariy as good an upgrade as they appeared to be). I shall consult a professional rigging company and an insurer, to see what their views would be on costs.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Second hand equipment comes with no warranty. Somebody will have to rate these wire them in and then monitor them going forward. In fact the only thing you will have saved is the cost of the winches. If you want a flying bar do it properly from first principles.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've done a few jobs where schools were adamant they wanted motorised bars to keep their idiotic elfs of safety satisfied, many of whom got the job because they were rubbish teachers and needed to me 'promoted'. The people I was doing the job with sent me back to do some training, and I stuck a sticker across the key switch they had provided for the elf - to stop anyone lowering them without permission. Going back when they did their annual service to advise on something else, my sticker was still across the lock hole, undisturbed. The lights on the bar were clearly different, so the users had just carried on with the A Frame, which meant the entire project was a waste of money! The elf, however was happy and presumably moved on to the sports department. (Different school, but I really had to smile at the Health and Safety Sticker on a long case in the gym store. WARNING - two members of staff or 4 pupils must carry this case for safety reasons. I found that ironic considering inside the case were ....... Javelins!)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi. I spend a lot of my time with winches and I agree with the general tone here that caution is needed to proceed. However I would argue that winches, installed and used correctly, are quite safe and indeed relatively straightforward.

You can also argue that whilst there are some safety implications involved in the operation of the machinery... that risk is often going to be a lower risk than that of sustained periods of work atop a tall ladder.

First rule of work at height is not to, unless you have to. Your enquiry to introduce mechanical means of bring the bar down to a safe working level is, in principle, the responsible approach from an H&S angle.

 

Hello,

I work at a small community hall. We've been offered the opportunity to acquire some second hand electric winches, manufactured by Mole Richardson (UK) ltd in 1998. They appear to be in working order, obviously if we put them in we are going to have them installed and insured properly etc. I can't find any information about this company or the type of winch online, although I have found the manual for the electric motor they used (Seipee, an Italian manufacturer, still trading). I was wondering if anyone here had heard of this equpment, and if anyone would be able to give me any advice on this kind of thing. I'm reluctant to instal things that will be an burden, or you cannot get any spares for.

 

The thing with winches as you are seeing now is that typically they consist of 5 key components.

1. The chassis (what everything bolts to, plus the drum, leadscrew, secondary brake etc), typically built by whom we would call the 'manufacturer'.

2. The motor (what turns electricity into movement), in this case you have identified that's made my Seipee

3. The gearbox (what will dictate the SWL, and the speed, in conjunction with the motor and of course, all other load bearing parts). That's usually made by yet another party.

4. The rope (obvious), could be Steel Wire Rope, but fibre is common too, or even steel band. Made by another party.

5. The I/O. (Electronics - limit switches, sensors, encoder(s), discreet PLC I/O, local controls etc, as required) Made by yet more parties.

 

Each will have had a declaration of incorporation (DOI), but not necessarily a declaration of conformity (DOC), Mole Richardson will likely have issued the DOC as a complete machine, so in terms of machinery directive, they are the manufacturer in essence.

 

So the trouble with old winches tends to be joining all the various dots together from numerous places, to ascertain what is, and does, what.

That said, there can be some perks of that, in respect of retrofitting old mechanical engineering with modern controls etc, which might be impractical in a complete machine due to size and cable limitations etc.

But the challenge - depending on how much information Mole Richardson can provide - is in understanding what the winches were designed for and the limitations they were designed for.

There will have to be a process of looking at all the various components to establish the expected performance, and the limitations, of the machine.

The motor is only half the battle, a small motor can lift big weight with the right gearbox (but will move slowly), and can also move quickly with the right gearbox (for light loads).

The resultant speed and load (and the loading you require) may dictate that varispeed is a necessity ('hard-starting/stopping' a high speed winch can exert very large dynamic loads) and that may then extend to the safety system, where the traditional 'Cat0' stop - cut power and let brakes come on - is unsuitable; so a controlled stop would in that case need to be programmed as part of the Emergency Stop system, that tends to then require more hardware and programming etc. So there's quite a few 'ifs' and 'buts'. A lower speed, lower-SWL winch may well be suitable for a more simple start and stop operation. These winches could be too lightweight for your intended application, or they could be so big that they need controls incorporating to limit their performance. Or if you're lucky, you could be somewhere in the middle.

 

I would be happy to advise you on this, I have sent you a PM with some more details.

Ultimately I suspect it will need a contractor who is familiar with both the mechanical engineering and the controls.

In order to be compliant, it needs somebody who is familiar with both the electromechanical functioning of the winch, familiar with British and European legislation for lifting equipment, and familiar with theatre-specific standard and codes of practice.

Even if the winches happen to be ready for use immediately, I would think it reasonably likely that you'll need some form of bespoke controls to be produced. Unlike chain hoists, you can't really buy 'off the shelf' motor control.

Sensors and, accordingly, wiring may also need to be modernised to meet modern legislation, in terms of meeting Machinery Directive standards.

 

I don't want to rule out your winches, but I think there is every scope that a pair of electric chain hoists and a basic 2-channel electric chain hoist controller, 'off-the-shelf', with a shorter install and easier certification, could come out cheaper than recommissioning these winches.

That said, there may be more scope to what your winches can do around your theatre, too - so don't let me talk you out of it, either!

Inspection and maintenance will of course become a factor which needs to be considered and indeed paid for, but I feel this thread might make that sound a bit more complex and expensive than it actually is.

Getting quotes from service providers who carry out this kind of work would be the best way to anticipate what sort of annual costs you're likely to incur... I think that the estimate of £5k a year is quite excessive.

Edited by dje
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.