Foldback Video monitors

[richardash1981]

I am helping look after sound for a local church worship group. Unlike many such groups which are based on one location, this one roams across Merseyside and the edges of surrounding areas, with a specific remit to bring new music to churches. As a result it is (mostly) the same musicians, but in different buildings each time. In general they are technically self-sufficient, bringing portable PA (Peavy Escort) and so on. If there is installed equipment and we can use it, then we sometimes do to reduce the transport and set-up needed.

 

The expectation with this group is firmly that congregations will join in singing (it is very much not a concert performance). As is common in many churches these days, data projection is used to display the words to the congregation (there are printed copies as well, but most people follow the screen). The content is just a big PowerPoint slide deck, prepared in advance and pushed along by hand. The group bring their own laptop, screen and data projector, but this is an area where the installed equipment is often better than can be done with a portable system (bigger, better placed screens and brighter projectors), so I would guess about 50% of locations we are stand-alone, and the other 50% we plug the group's laptop into the installed projection system. In nearly all cases the screen will be alongside or behind the band, facing the same way as them, so they won't be able to see the projection surface. The content is very plain white text on black background, with no animation. They do sometimes use video clips (inserted into PowerPoint), but showing these to the band is not required, provided they still go to main projector.

 

All that is background. The question I have now been asked is can we use "a couple of LCD monitors to display song lyrics and other stuff for the benefit of the singers and band". Associated is the question "what do we need to buy to do this?". I haven't been told, but my guess is that finding a reliable body to drive the slide deck has been problematic. This would either leave a musician trying to double up as slide driver, or someone from the host church being pressed into service, with the obvious potential for getting out of sync with the band.I can see the sense in this, although I'm not sure we have worked out where physically to put the screens yet, or what size is practical (nothing has been bought yet, apart from the existing laptop and projector). With this mind, the solution needs to be simple enough that people other than me can set it up when I'm not there. I don't do all the band's gigs, we are looking for more volunteers but often they have to rely upon the musicians setting themselves up.

 

Five years ago, this would have been a relatively simple question to answer, because VGA was still the standard for low end systems. I would have suggested a 4-way VGA distribution amplifier and a few longish VGA leads (maybe 2 x 10m and 2 x 20m). The monitors would probably not be 1024x768 native resolution (which was the largest projector you ever found), but could be relied upon to display on pretty much any computer monitor. For large font text, the scaling would be acceptable. The result would have looked something like this:screens-VGA by Richard Ash, on Flickr

 

The problem I see with recommending this now, is that the world is moving towards HDMI, and resolutions are going up. Whilst the current set up has VGA and HDMI out of the laptop and into the projector, they always use the VGA lead it came with. Installed projectors at churches vary a lot, from VGA@1024x768

(sometimes less!), which is also what the band's projector is normally set to, to HDMI@1920x1080. I'm aware of one installation locally which only has HDMI input available, and no foldback monitors installed.

As far as I know, getting Windows/PowerPoint to send the slide show to both VGA and HDMI at the same time isn't a sensible route (and won't work if you want presenter console on the laptop screen).

• Adding a converter from VGA to HDMI does not seem like a good solution in terms of quality to the projector (running a real risk of ending up with 1024x768 scaled onto a full-HD projector! It also doesn't help if a new laptop doesn't have a VGA output.
• Wiring both HDMI and VGA everywhere does not seem to meet the simplicity requirement (and means two lots of everything). The laptop settings will change depending on the projector in use: screens-HDMI+VGA by Richard Ash, on Flickr
• Running HDMI with conversion to VGA for the projector poses issues getting the laptop set to the same screen resolution as the projector (for quality there), and assumes that the screens will cope with the range of resolutions needed by different projectors: screens-HDMI+convert_VGA by Richard Ash, on Flickr

My other concern if they want physically small screens, is that most of the cheap ones have less than full HD native resolutions. Do I need to worry about getting screens which can cope with having full HD signal sent to it over HDMI? I don't want to end up with a production switcher if we can help it (budget could well be a problem), and anyway it's not clear whether one would help or not.

 

Has anyone faced this kind of problem before, and if so what did you do?

[mac.calder]

Most LCD TVs will have onboard scaling - so they will support a range of resolutions up-to and including 1080p - if the panel is <1080p is will downscale.

 

You don't need a presetation switcher, all you need is a scaler to help interface with an unknown "random" device. This from Kramer for example. Run your stuff at the highest resolution you can afford - so HDMI 1080p if you can afford to and then have a scaler available if the onsite projector is not HDMI compatible. Downside is someone needs to know how to set it up... the upside is they are not that complicated.

[richardash1981]

You don't need a presetation switcher, all you need is a scaler to help interface with an unknown "random" device. This from Kramer for example.

Would a DVI scaler be usable with passive adaptor leads? Something like TV One-Task 1T-PCDVI-PCDVI or TvOne C2-2205. Or does it not work reliably to try and adapt from DVI output to HDMI inputs? I don't expect to ever have to worry about HDCP for this application.

[mac.calder]

DVI to HDMI adaptors will work, but they add a point of failure. The two linked boxes look like they have lived a pretty hard life...

[ninjadingle]

I'm all for keeping everything VGA, unless you're running HD video as part of your rig, and even on a projector it's probably not going to be pin sharp resolution anyway?

 

Other benefits - VGA is a locking connection - nice when dealing with areas of high footfall (stage). VGA distro is cheap compared to HDMI, and is guaranteed to play nice, regardless of HDCP issues (see Macbook thread on at the moment to get an idea of it popping up at random times...) - also will only carry video, not video and audio... (Win 10 toast notifications anyone?) And don't start on cable lengths - I guess you're going to want cables that run longer than 5m?

 

Get yourself a VGA to HDMI scaler for when you need to go into a HDMI projector - this Extron RGB-HDMI 300 would do the job nicely. Once set up it should be easy enough to put into the signal chain!

[sandall]

I'm all for keeping everything VGA, unless you're running HD video as part of your rig, and even on a projector it's probably not going to be pin sharp resolution anyway?

Even SVGA (800x600) is usually good enough for your average Powerpoint or SongPro slide, especially if you don't tell anyone !!

 

Get yourself a VGA to HDMI scaler for when you need to go into a HDMI projector

Excellent suggestion

[Joe Fernand]

The Video Distribution (Digital or Analogue) Ought to be the relatively simple part to accomplish - the Front end of your system and the requirement to make it user friendly for untrained volunteers to operate and presumably display differing content to the Show Controller, Performers and Audience is going to be the more difficult bit to accomplish.

 

Delivering the Slide/Text at the appropriate time (just before you want folk to sing the line) is quite a skill - which becomes harder once you start to 'Freestyle' ('One More Time' is a fun moment :)).

 

Have a look at the likes of ProPresenter by RenewedVision for an idea of what Features you may want to include in your system.

 

Joe

Edited September 4, 2018 by Joe Fernand

[richardash1981]

The Video Distribution (Digital or Analogue) Ought to be the relatively simple part to accomplish - the Front end of your system and the requirement to make it user friendly for untrained volunteers to operate and presumably display differing content to the Show Controller, Performers and Audience is going to be the more difficult bit to accomplish.

I asked this at the start - they are clear that the Performers and Audience get exactly the same content, and the slide deck is built in advance to match what the musicians will do. The advantage of the musicians doing new stuff is that they don't know it well enough to deviate from the paper (/iPad) in front of them!

 

Delivering the Slide/Text at the appropriate time (just before you want folk to sing the line) is quite a skill - which becomes harder once you start to 'Freestyle' ('One More Time' is a fun moment :)).

I'm trying hard to avoid getting the job of actually driving slides, not least because I can't concentrate on that and the sound desk at the same time! Much as labour would be saved by using something smarter for content, there is a willing volunteer to build the PowerPoint decks in advance, who wouldn't be confident building up content for a specialist song projection package. So unless I want to do all the words entry, I keep the scope under control ...

[mac.calder]

I'm all for keeping everything VGA, unless you're running HD video as part of your rig, and even on a projector it's probably not going to be pin sharp resolution anyway?

 

Why assume it will not be sharp?

 

Other benefits - VGA is a locking connection - nice when dealing with areas of high footfall (stage). VGA distro is cheap compared to HDMI, and is guaranteed to play nice, regardless of HDCP issues (see Macbook thread on at the moment to get an idea of it popping up at random times...) - also will only carry video, not video and audio... (Win 10 toast notifications anyone?) And don't start on cable lengths - I guess you're going to want cables that run longer than 5m?

 

VGA is locking... except when devices don't have binding posts - and binding posts are a necessity because VGA pulls out REALLY easily. HDMI is quite a firm fit connector. The amount of on-axis force required to pull an HDMI is more than I would generally like my equipment to experience. Most modern laptops, no binding posts - most dongles also have no binding posts. I used to decry the same thing, VGA is locking, I need a locking connector. Now I look back at it... VGA used to pull out under its own cable weight between the table and the floor. DVI was the same - and if it was a good quality high bandwidth DVI connector it would usually kill some pins while it was at it... HDMI does have a locking variant, it has a small binding post located above (or bellow) the centre of the socket - you can get little retrofit do-dads if your cables don't have the corresponding screw like this. A couple of zip ties and it will ensure that your projector ends up broken on the floor instead of just having the screen go black for 30 seconds.

 

Guaranteed to play nice... not really. VGA you can generally "get something" out of it. Whether that is good quality or not is another question.

 

Cable length on HDMI... yeah, you are going to need to use active cables. Want to know how much HDMI distribution costs these days? I can get terminated LC fibre - simplex - for about AU$0.90/m which can be tied in knots and be perfectly happy. I can combine those with HDMI optical converters that are about twice the size of an HDMI plug and powered by 5v micro USB for about AU$75 an end (per TX or RX). I can get a 1x8 passive optical splitter that works with these said same converters for < AU$9. And 3 displays and a laptops worth of cabling and distribution fits in a small briefcase and is very light weight.

 

30m VGA cable of "ok" quality costs me AU$100 and I have to order it in because they don't keep anything longer than 1.5m in stock. And I can get a cheap VGA DA for about $15 - but is has a wallwart that needs to be powered, or a quality one for about $300 that has an IEC. 3 displays and a laptop worth of cabling takes a small crate and weighs about 15-20kg...

 

Get yourself a VGA to HDMI scaler for when you need to go into a HDMI projector - this Extron RGB-HDMI 300 would do the job nicely. Once set up it should be easy enough to put into the signal chain!

 

Provided the OP does not want to use pretty much any TV bought from a retailer as his foldback monitors (say 32in TV's). I just went to 2 different online retailers and checked every TV they had between 32 and 47" and NONE had VGA. Not 1. So now every display device needs a VGA->HDMI converter.

 

Sure in a legacy systems, go ahead, use VGA. No problems. But for new systems, to go VGA is not a wise decision - especially as most people's HDMI issues are more related to education and the misguided belief that since they can plug in their XBox at home they understand how to troubleshoot and use HDMI. Anyone who has been in this industry long enough knows that VGA systems had a LOT of knowledge required to properly troubleshoot and get pixel perfect quality out the other end. HDMI is just a bit less forgiving to those who have not done a bit of research.

Edited September 5, 2018 by mac.calder

[James]

Another alternative you might consider looking at.

 

Open LP (https://openlp.org/) is a Free open source piece of software designed entirely around song word presentation for churches.

 

If you were to transfer your song words from Powerpoint to OpenLP then there would be a number of options available to you

(I appreciate there would be a setup/transition time to do this)

 

OpenLP supports wireless access over wifi.

 

Songs are loaded into OpenLP and are assigned a structure (Verse1, Verse2, Chorus, Verse3, Bridge, Chorus, Chorus) that will be presented to the operator as default however anything can be recalled simply and easily in an asynchronous fashion if needed.

 

OpenLP has a "Stage View" function. With this your band members can use their Android/IoS/Windows tablets (anything that will display a web page) to view the OpenLP output - this will automatically update to show the current selected slide / words (And will also show the next words according to the default word order instantly updating itself if there are any changes.

 

 

In order to use OpenLP you would need a laptop (as you already have) and to use "StageView" you would probably be best adding a wifi base station.

 

This is a solution that would be entirely format agnostic (Laptop will run output display at whatever resolution is needed for your projector / house projector) and will always be able to run the stage view irrespective .

 

There would be less equipment to carry and less cabling on stage.

 

 

Hope this helps.

 

James.

[timsabre]

OpenLP is a good idea if you are just showing song words. I know you said this is someone else's job but having the song words in a database makes assembling the service material a whole lot quicker than messing around with powerpoint.

The only thing I don't like about it is if you actually need to show a powerpoint sequence on the projector (eg for a talk or something). You can embed the powerpoint and it'll show the first slide, but you then have to task switch from OpenLP to powerpoint to be able to advance through the slides. Unless I am doing it wrong.

 

[James]

Tim

 

We have had some powerpoint work OK directly in OpenLP, are you working with the latest version?

 

It can get a little sensitive depending on what is in the ppt (embedded media/video etc) and also what was used to create the ppt (which version of ppt, or ppt 'compatible' keynote etc..)

 

That said for install use we run a 2nd PC dedicated for PPT and switch externally for primary screens.

 

James.

[timsabre]

Hmm tried again and powerpoint seems to work fine. I like the way you can produce different stage views using html, means we can create a words overlay screen for our web broadcast and also a different view for the band monitors.

[James]

Good to hear Tim.

 

Have to confess;

A) we have over of the active openlp developers at our church.

B) I've never been particularly involved in the song word side of things generally spending more time on lx or sound.

So can't say for certain way version we are currently using... or if it's even publicly available... ;) ... but it certainly does what we need it to do.

[richardash1981]

If I was generating content and working the laptop, then OpenLP would probably be what I was using - I have used it occasionally at my church when no-one else was available to do a service. But it is a long way out the comfort zone of people who have just about grasped how to copy and paste slides between PowerPoint presentations for their day job.

 

What I understand a number of people to be recommending is this (I tried to number the previous diagrams, but it seems to have broken the embedding, and I can't edit my first post to fix it):

screens-VGA+scaler on Flickr

 

ninjadingle raised the jssue of cable lengths, and I'm certainly expecting to need more than 5m cables, one side to the other of the band is probably up to 10m in some cases (where the available space is shallow and wide). This causes two sorts of problems, making long HDMI runs work (as people have pointed out), but I'm not that enamoured with VGA either, because my experience to date is that inexperienced people are remarkably good at bending pins in VGA leads. Nedless to say, they do it to your longest cables, and it's always a picture pin they bend! A work-around is to put port savers on the end of all the long cables and replace when needed (they are cheap enough on ebay), but it's another lot of bits to mess with.Is VGA-over-CAT5 a sensible alternative? The rationale is that RJ-45 may not be any more robust than DB-15HD, but the cables are a lot cheaper to replace, and you have a reasonable chance of re-crimping the ends yourself (I don't fancy re-terminating VGA cables). There seem to be lots of options:

• I'm seeing quite a few systems with a multi-way sender (VGA in, loop through and multiple CAT-5 out) and then receivers for each display.(CPC AV1998206 and CPC AV1998406)
• I've also seen single-way systems which send power down the CAT-5 so that you don't need to plug both ends in to mains power, which makes the back of the screen a lot tider, no wall wart to find power for on stage (CPC AV21578). Now if I could find one that combined both...
• There are also passive adaptors which look too good to be true but might work for short runs from a splitter to monitors?