Hi,

I have been planning the sound for out forthcoming band day where we have various experienced bands come in to our school to play in slots for the whole day which is about 6 hours long.

I have planned what I'm going to do but just wanted to post it on here to see if I'm doing anything wrong.

My plan

I am going to Mic up kick drum, Snare, Hi Hat and Toms using SM57's (Not sure about my mic choice but thats why I'm posting lol).

I am going to provide 4 vocal mics on stands which will be plenty for the bands which are coming in.

I am definitely doing to D.I. any Bass Guitars so I have complete control over them which would also mean not letting them use their own bass amps.

I would also Like to D.I. to other electric Guitars but I don't know if this is the usual. I would Like to as It would give me full control over them and save me running a load of power points to the stage for amps even though I would need to for their fx units. Would you guys D.I. them or just mic their amps up?

I am going to run 4 wedges on 2 separate channels. On one set I will run wedges for Bass and kit and on the other Lead and singer.

Our PA is a 3.8KW warfedale rig and in a school hall I feel it will cope fine on its own without the use of Guitar amps as well meaning D.I.ing the lot wouldn't be a problem.

How does this sound. I need all the help I can get improving my knowledge and making the best Job of all my gigs.

Thanks

Daniel

Hi




The problem here is that a lot of guitarist like to get their sound from the amp and speaker, DI'ing will negate this sound, so I would reconsider this and try to get the guitarists to keep their levels down and mic the cabinets.

Good luck

Ian

Hi,

As I thought. I will mic them I think. Would a SM57 or 58 be best. I think 57 but just want to check.

Thanks

Daniel

SM57. It doesn't have the mid-high peak in it's frequency response that the '58 does, so it's more suitable for a guitar amp.

I'd run everything to the board, even if you don't plan on including it in the final mix. It just means that if you, for some reason, need to chuck the lead guitar into the mix a little, for a solo, or if you want to get the upper mid 'slap' of a bass cutting thru, you have the ability to, whereas if it's not in the board, you're stuffed.
Of course, if you don't have all the channels or mics you need, reconsider.

Aren't there more topics on here that discuss this sort of thing?
David

I'm sure other topics on here will give more detail but...

SM57's sound like a good choice for guitar cabs, snare, hat and toms.

DI's have already been covered elsewhere, so I won't go there again.

3.8KW?!! Blimey - I'd have killed for a rig that size during my school days. If you're careful, you could have yourself a very nice time running a (near) complete mix on FOH.

I've had some good experiences with Warfedale-based rigs, especially in the typical "rock n roll" gigs I've been doing over the last couple of years. They tend to have a cleaner (and louder) treble than most budget rigs, so you might need to get a bit fancy with a graphic to keep feedback under control.

Hope some of this helps...

C.

Hi,

Thanks, our rig is very nice which is why I want to get the best out of it.

We have the behringer ultragraph pro eq so I can keep an eye on feedback no problem. Its a great model as it lights the frequency up which is feeding back so I can just kill it and by by feedback (I first try using the desk EQ pots so I dont have to mess with the overall sound but any stubborn frequencies get cut on the EQ.

Thanks

Daniel

P.S. Yeh there is a DI thread going which I have been reading so maybe I shouldn't have mentioned D.I.'s in here. Ah well.

Hi

I would not rely on those little lights on the Graphic (use your ears) they will light up on the frequency if it sustained such as from a guitar or keyboard. If you are keen on doing sound in the future try to learn the frequencys and what they sound like when feeding-back.

Any way have fun


Ian

Hi,

Couple of quick thoughts, not sure what or how many mics you have available but it might be good to use a condensor mic of some description for the hi-hat as it will give a brighter sound than dynamic mics such as the SM57/58. Also if you have access to a 'specialist' bass drum mic such as the AKG D112 or equivalents from AT/Shure/Sennheiser that could be useful too... 58's for vocals I presume?!

As others have said already - 3.8kW for a school rig?!!! Lucky you!

S

Hi,

I have access to about 5x 57's, 7x 58's, 3x akg c1000s, about 5 more vocal mics and 1x pro series mic which sound great for the kick drum

I will most likely play around with the mics to see which sound best.

Tempted to use a c 1000 for hi hat and another for toms, a 57 for snare and a pro series for kick drum. This should give me a good mix for the drums but I have a lot to learn about mic choice so im trying to take onboard all the advice your giving me.

Yes it will be 58's for vocals, I know that much lol.

Thanks

Daniel

I would personally use, 2 C1000 for over heads, and the other for hi-hat,
Then put 57's on snare and toms and if the pro series mic works well then keep it on kick drum,

C1000 will work well for the hi-hat, I would (personally) stick to using the SM57s on the snare and toms. Depending on how large your hall is (and how loud the rest of the backline are playing!) you might do well using the other two C1000s for overheads on the drums to pick up cymbals which obvously won't be covered by the other close mics.

As far as mic choice is concerned generally, it tends to be a rather personal thing with each engineer preferring particular mics for certain applications. As a general rule, condensor mics are preferred over dynamics when the sound source produces a lot of high frequencies such as piano, strings, cymbals, hi-hat etc or when the sound source is fairly quiet such as acoustic guitar as condensors are generally more sensitive than dynamics.

Experimenting with different mics is a good idea, especially with singers. The SM58 is a definite industry standard vocal mic but doesn't bring out the best in everyone's voices, other mics may suit particular voices better.

Hope this helps

S

Sorry misterbassman, I was obviously writing the last post when you added yours, didn't mean to repeat what you said!

S

Hi,

Can I just ask do you tend to mic up all parts of the kit if you can? I mean thats a lot of mics in one small space. Doesn't it come to about 7 or 8 mics for the kit? If so should I try and do the same as I have the kit to play with but don't know if I should go for it or hold back and just mic up the basics and play it safe.

Thanks

Daniel

I would normally have one mic each on kick, snare, hi-hat and two overheads as a minimum. Depending on the type of music and time available to set up, I would add extra mics for toms. Personally, I think it is good to have a good number of components of the kit miked up as it gives you more control over levels in the mix.

As far as mics getting in the way, why not get hold of some drum rim clamps for the snare and tom mics which clamp onto the drums without damaging them and allow any mic to be attached to them. They also save on the number of mic stands you need and cut down on the scaffolding round the kit!

S

Hi,

Thanks I will investigate.

Thanks

Daniel

Just to add my 2p to the sensible replies so far:

Drum kit - 57 for kick not a good idea. Don't know what your "pro series mic" is but if it sounds OK, use it. Micing the hihat should be bottom of the priority list - there's normally enough spill onto the other mics, especially if you have two overheads.

Bass - let them use their own amps and either stick a DI box inline with the input or on a preamp output socket. Few musos would be happy playing into a DI box, and keeping musos happy is an important part of the sound engineers job.

Electric - let them bring their own amps and stick an SM57 in front.

Combos generally - if you are worried about spill/control, get them to point their amps cross-stage or back towards them, as opposed to out towards the audience.

If you want to reduce changeover time, try to get the bands to share drum kit and amps as much as possible.

Have you considered what if bands have keyboard players, sax, or other instruments?

Hi,

Im going on what I know at the moment. I should find out in a couple of weeks the full requirements of the bands and then I can finalise the plans.

To be honest it doesnt matter if what some people have told me is irrelevent to what I will need as it is all brilliant advice I am getting.

The kit they will be using is our schools which consists of

1 kick drum
1 hi hat
1 snare
2 toms attached to kick
2 smaller toms on a stand
1 floortom
1 large cymbal obove floortom
1 smaller cymbal above toms attached to kick drum.

Would micing the 2 cymbals be a bit pointless if I have SM57's about 6 inches away micing the toms. Wouldnt I get enough pickup to get the cymbals as well.

It it worth micing the floortom as well?

Thanks

Daniel

Moderation: Two posts merged, again! If you post is still the last in the topic please edit it when you have new information to add, rather than making another post.

The pro series mic sounds like an A/T ATM25 Pro series Kick mic.
Just to be different, the last drum kit I miked up, only had 3 mics- a D112 in Kik, a SM57 on Snare/ Hi hat (positined between the two) and a SM57 over the top of the kit- it picked it up suprisingly well, the toms nicely with the right balance of cymbals.
This is how it's often done in recording, as far as I'm aware. One (or two) mics behind the drummer's head, cos that's how he tunes the kit to sound the best, and a mic in the kik.

And to answer your last question, Daniel, from what you say, I'd mic the Kik, Sn, Tom 1, Tom 2, and then just throw a couple of overheads up, to capture the kit. Just my opinion, however...
Maybe not... depending on how you position the mics, the cymbals may well be in the 'null' of the mic's pickup pattern so you wouldnt get as much sound thru as with a dedicated mic.

Speaking as a drummer, cymbals are more important than toms, they get played more often, it might be worth using overheads to pick up cymbals and toms, instead of close miking just the toms.

If you do mike the toms mike them all, it creates an unbalanced sound otherwise.
I have had reasonable success with sharing a mike between two toms before, if that would help.

Hi,

I think I will use my pro series for the kick as its fine. Use a 57 for the snare and a 57 for the Hi hat. I can then use 2 or 3 overhead/ on stand c1000's mics to pick up toms and cymbals.

This leaves me some 57's spare for the Guitar amps.

I agree that if I mic the toms I should mic them all because as you say it will sound daft when they drum on 1 tom and it comes through then they get nothing on the next one. the c1000's or 57's should solve this problem as they have a great pickup.

Thanks

Daniel

Most importantly get things to sound good acoustically in the first place! Try and put some damping in the Kick drum I.e towel or padding of some sort. Try and get the snare and toms tuned well and not ringing.. This will be half the battle won. Personally I would mike Kick, Snare and 2x OH which will pick up Toms, Hi and Cymbals quite adequately.

Hi,

The Kick already has a pillow inside it so I presume its there for dampening. I will get the drums teacher to sort out the toms and snare.

Which would be best for overhead; SM57 or C1000s?

also when everyone says overhead do you mean fly the mics from their cable from and overhead bar? or do you mean just on a stand high up?

I know its a dumb question but I want to make sure.

Thanks

Daniel

Would always use a condenser (C1000) over a dynamic like the 57 for Overheads, they will give you the brightness of the cymbals/hi-hat with their extended frequency response in the top end. If you are having feedback problems and have no eq then resort to the 57.

Overhead does mean on a tall stand placed Left and Right of the drum kit

Thankyou griffter thats a great help.

Thanks

Daniel

I should probably have been a bit clearer, on my use of an SM57 on overhead. Firstly, it's the only mic I had available to me at the time, and I wanted to try it out and see how it went, and it sounded 'okay' to me at the time. My opinion is that it took some of the 'harshness' off they cymbals as well as allowing the toms to punch through. However, the more standard approach, as you have been told, is to use condensers for the overhead.

Hi,

Do the overheads have to be on left and right. I mean on the right side the Hi hat will be miced on its own with a c1000 and the snare will have a 57 on it.

Would it be better to put one overhead at the front to pick up 1 cymbal and toms then another to the left to pick up the other cymbal and toms?

Thanks

Daniel

Generally standard practice is to put them kind of left and right of the drum kit. But theres no hard and fast rule.. The key thing is to play around until they sound balanced to you. Often I dont have the luxury of time to do this! Some people put them behind the drummer pointing over his head.

lxdeptnz - Wasn't having a go mate, If it worked at the time and its all that was available then cool! We've all been I that situation before!

@Grifter: Nah, I know that. Just thought I should clarify that, lest I confuse the OP.

ive had good results with just two sm57s overhead a dedicated kick drum mic and a snare mic , simple but effective - if your micing the kit for webley arena then you go for the 7 piece 2 thousand pound drum mics, but realisticaly in most venues a basic systym is just as effective, bearing in mind a drum kit isnt quiet, we use roland v drums alongside our accoustic kit on some gigs and the drummer changes during the gig, then you get a nice balanced line out, you can get some wicked sounds from an electric kit, might be worth checking one of your bands dosnt have one

however I do appreciate an electric kit isnt quite so "real" sounding but you can do so much more with it

- tom

I have done rock gigs for a while now and I always follow a similar format, but change it to suit the acoustic of the hall.
If the stage area is fairly "isolated" acoustically, (like with flys or if it is really low and the rest of the room high) I would mic the entire kit, and here use the C1000S's overhead with one on Hi hat, SM57 on the snare drum and then the pro on the bass drum. With the overhead, I tend to locate them pointing inbetween cymbals (above, but pointing inbetween) but it all depends on where the drummer will put his cymbals.
There is a really cool trick I picked up for micing bass drums if you have no dedicated mic; I put a layer of gaffa over the grille of an SM58 and it works a treat to me.
As far as DI boxes are concerned, in my experience dealing with young bands, they really do not like them, even if they make our job much easier. And yes, you will have problems with them turning up, even if they say they won't, most will just do it subconsciously.
With an electric kit, I agree you can have a lot of fun, but most bands will complain and I think that they are really no substitute for the real thing yet.

Chris

I've never known anyone since the early 70s record a drum kit in mono, and stereo requires 2 overheads (which form the basis of your stereo spread). Even the most basic trad jazz or folk recording would use 2 overheads plus kick and virtually every recording I've worked on (and I've worked in all different styles, in my time!) would want to add separate mics for snare, hi hats and each tom.

I do mainly live theatre work now and often find I only need overheads and kick, with the overheads coming from each side and pointed in the direction of the snare. Very ocasionally the kit will be so small as to get away with 1 overhead and kick, but that only works because theatres mix their drums in mono. For rock I'd close mic everything - condensers on cymbals (I.e. overheads and hi hats), dynamics on drums (though a C747 sounds surprisingly good on snare). For anything in between just do what you think will work and add/take away as necessary.

For live work I usually use kick, snare, hat, and one for each tom. I find the cymbals are far too loud to be needed to be mic'd up. Since they're in the most prominent frequencies of the Phons curve (equal loudness curve) one's ears can do with out it!

From mix position (25-30mtrs back for me) cymbals are unbearably loud and mask the Vocals too much, even if they're no where near each other.

I'll do a full mic up for recording work though. (inclusion of 2 overheads, in my case).

In my experience as a drummer, ignoring my work as a sound guy, I would say that the drummer has the best balance from where he (or she, I know a few female drummers) is sitting.
When I have heard kits that have not had their cymbals miked it sounds all wrong.
The snare and bass are left to dominate the drum mix and any patterns on the hihats and ride get hopelessly lost.

Please, please mike up our cymbals. If you were miking a guitar would you choose not to mike the top E because you were short of mikes or because it is nice and high and should carry anyway?

The hihats should be almost the same level as the snare in the drum mix perhaps very slightly lower. The same goes for the ride. The crashes/splashes/chinas etc, should be high enough to cut when hit but not linger around and clog up the drum mix.

Cymbals are a vital part of our drum kits - please mike them up!

The best drum sound I have ever had when being miked was achieved with 2 capacitor overheads and a D112 on the bass drum, nice and close to the head.

[glad I got that all off my chest]

Rant over.

in small venues there is no point mic'ing cymbals. Yes I know the musician whether it be a drummer, guitarist, pianist, whateverist - they all want their instrument to sound as good as possible.
But it's just not always practical to get the balance required in the mix. I WILL ALWAYS MIC UP A HIHAT though. I guess it depends on how loudly the cymbals are being hit, but in generic rock based stuff, it tends to be rather loud as far as cymbals are concerned, so loud that it is painful.

<pedant>oh and as a sound guy you should know that you don't use the letter "k" for the word "mic'ing" </Pedant>

Always good to get feedback (of the non howling variety) from musicians themselves. I am a musician and so appreciate their views.

I think it is perhaps a bit of a generalisation to say that there is no point mic'ing cymbals in small venues. It will depend on the style of the music; many of the bands that I mix are jazz-based - cymbals are very important in this particular style so I would always use overhead mics.

Dare I say it though, in many (amateur) rock bands, it often becomes a competition between backline amps and drums so often it does become painful regardless of what mic'ing has been done!

It depends.

I often do a band in a small room (30 - 50 people) and still use overheads (2) I don't always use them but I have them if I want them. It all depends on the number and how the drummer is playing.

James

Sorry Mr Si,
I use Miking as it has always been more popular over here than the awful american micing - which always brings small rodents to mind.

Me - I'm happy with "I miked up the cymbals" and "where is the cymbal mic"

when used as a verb, the K has the hard sounds required. C is often soft, so when followed by ing doesn't work. So furry mice, as in nice and trice - can't become micing, as in hiking and biking.

This was covered extensively on the theatre sound forum, which, being mainly US run, accepted micing and miking with a us/uk split.


Mind you.... if you used something like a rode NT1 this could get confusing?

Serious mode on - It's a choice. There is NO rule. and PLEASE, no daft poll on what everyone thinks. Use whatever you want, but don't set a rule,

GOOGLE returns 119,000 for miking and 19,900 for micing -so that's a 6 to 1 in favour of british spelling.