I'm looking for explanations as to why everyone seems to want to go digital in the live mixing scenario. Analogue has worked for me but I am open to persuasion. Currently using an LX7/24 alongside a Spirit Folio when needing a few more channels. Outboards include graphic EQ's, Effects and delay.

Fire away


Brian

I've only used analogue too, but I reckon one of the main reasons which I can see is the ability to recall settings for each band/song etc at the touch of a button.

Also, I've read that people people are very happy about using the inboard effect which the desk has to offer. And possibly only take that "Special" bit of kit which will be the only outboard they'll have.

The only problem I can see, is the price tag.

another reason that digital pleases accountants and administrators (in theatres if not in concert halls) is the smaller footprint of the desks - I heard that the digital desk bought for Lion Witch and the Wardrobe" at Sadlers Wells a few years ago paid for itself by virtue of all the extra seats released for sale because the mixing position was halved. I can't vouch for the economic truth of this, and of course the logic only works for dead cert sell out shows....

happily, we don't need to worry about this in our new theatre, as our stalls mixing position is "non convertible" - I.e. it's designed so it can't become more seats for punters....so we can make our decision on desk for operational reason - the best quality for a given budget...

My reason is purely one of logistics - I have my own rig I use for one-offs and am dram runs which currently consists of a few flightcases, multicore etc. Loosing the FX rack and making the mixer case smaller (by going digital) can only help my poor suffering back (and make get-ins/outs much easier).

I made an investment in digital last August and can give you a run down on what swung my decidion. FYI, my first digital desk was a Yamaha DM1000, but similar considerations would apply to most of them:

1. Cost. The DM1000 plus 2x16 channel ADAT cards and 4 Behringer ADA8000 converters cost me a bit over £5K, but for that price I got a 48 channel system with 8 busses, 8 auxes, 4 channels of effects, gate & compressor on all inputs, fully swept parametric EQ on all outputs, a total of 44 outputs, etc etc. Similar features and quality in analogue would have been much more.

2. Flexibility. Scene recall memories, midi controlled automation, etc. Again, possible on analogue but only by spending more. Having virtually all the outboard you could ever want internal to the board and controlled by the automation lets you do things you only dreamed of before.

3. Footprint. As already mentioned, the above package takes up significantly less theatre real estate (allowing producers to sell more seats) and also means I can transport it all to site in the back of my car, not a rented van or whatever.

Now the possible downsides:

1. Mixing 48 channels on only 16 faders means you have to assign things to layers and really think about what's where. This (and point two coming up) were my biggest fears but the ability to use the scene presets etc. have meant the problems were much less than I expected. Also, with experience comes speed...and I can now probably get from one layer to another faster than I could reach from one end to the other of a big 48 channel analogue board.

2. Similarly, the need to select a channel then make an adjustment takes a bit of getting used to after just being able to grab the control you want on an analogue board. Again, modern control surfaces make this less of an issue than I had feared...just touch the fader you want then (on the Yamaha at least) you have a dedicated knob for your adjustment of EQ, routing, etc. Once you're set up it's rare to need to work through menus during a show. Still...not quite as convenient as analogue until you factor in scene recall.

3. Reliability. Everyone has heard a story of some friend of a friend whose digital board needed rebooting mid show and taking ages to fix itself. All I can see is I've never had this happen...but watch this space.

Hope this helps!

Bob

Thank you all for your input. I still find it hard to get my head round the idea of 16 faders controlling 32+ channels, I find myself riding channels most of the time especially with junior groups. I think that the time has come to find a digital board and play hardball with it (metaphorically speaking). Any offers around the West Country.

Brian

Does the 32 channels on 16 faders work like submaster and pages on lighting desks, for example you have pages of faders to flick through and then can use any of the channels on that page??

Is it therefore impossible to crossfade 2 channels sharing the same fader? How easy is it to mix the channels like this for example how long will it take you to be able to access a channel that is causing some earkilling feedback!!

Sam (a lamptramp and SM who struggles with analogue sound let alone digital!)

There's also the multicore to consider. If you Pre-amp and A-D at the stage then the multicore at £xx a metre can be replaced by cat5 at pence a metre.

On my Behringer ddx3216 (I don't know about the yamahas for certain, but I'm pretty sure their the same) you have a page with faders 1-16, then press a button for faders 17 - 32, and another for Busses 1-16 and another to reach the aux sends and returns.

I've only had my desk a couple of months and have not used it much but I do prefer it to analog because its all there, all the compression, gating, EQ, delay, 4 FX saving having to haul loads of racks around and setting it all up. This was one of the main reasons I bought it, that and because it worked out a lot cheaper as I didn't need racks of kit.

Scene recall is great also plus you can store all saved files on a memory card or transfer them to your computer so if I know which who's playing in church I can recall their settings before the practice. It wont be perfect but I find it saves time and gives me a starting point.

As I say, I haven't been using it for all that long but the pro's far outweigh the con's.
Bit of a learning curve, bit definantly (in my opinion) worth it!

Hope this helps,
Chris

Can I just ask, does the DDX3216 require an outboard unit to provide the additional 16 inputs? Looking at the pictures on the behringer website, it looks to only have 16 inputs.

Well, speaking for the Yamaha range, I have 4 "layers" of 16 faders each: 3 layers are for input channels (up to 48) and the fourth is a master section with Aux sends and Bus outs. Access to any layer is instant via a single keystroke. (For pedants, in fact there are two additional layers for remote use when in a studio situation, but these aren't relevant here.)



It's impossible to manually crossfade two things on different layers since you can't physically touch both at once. If it's a fade that can be preset, this is certainly possible....and done all the time. As for access time, once you know the board I can get to any fader on any layer in a very short time...probably as quick as getting from one end to the other of a large format analogue board. However, the key is "once you know the board". The learning curve is steeper than with analogue and there's no escaping that. However, as I mentioned earlier, I'm now also doing things I wouldn't have attempted with analogue, particularly in the area of flying effects in and out mid number and so on. I'm also a lot more clever at deciding what inputs to put on each layer to keep the groupls logical and accessible...and using a PC interface I tend to have this sort of thing preset before I get near the theatre for tech.

As with anything, it's a compromise, but (at least for the sort of theatre and corporate stuff I do) a worthwhile one.

Bob

Yup, the DDX3216 has 12 Mic Preamps and 4 Line inputs. For more you need to buy an ADAT optical input card and an ADA8000 I believe (I'm only running 16 channels at the moment as I have no need for more just yet).

We use small format digital mixers a lot.

We regularly have problems with Yamaha 03d mixers due to their age (3-5 years old) they are suffering from dying A-D chips. It's a simple fix to replace but you do suddenly get hash on the input when they go. We have had a couple of D-As go but it is a lot les frequent.

Two of our three brand new DM1000s have already failed. (dead screens) these were warenty repairs but it was a pain to be without them for a week.

James

PS This is in TV Post Production rather than theatre but it should give you an idea of longevity.

James

Misquoted I know but it rather puts me off, it would be a major issue if it went mid performance.

How do you use your DDX3216, do you run the whole show on it or just radio mics?

Brian

This is my first post here and it seemed a good place to start!
I am still a bit undecided about digital desks, partly because I have mixed on analogue for about 18 years now and the 'protocols' are a little odd.
I mix at a lot of festivals or events where set-up and soundcheck can be very short on time. Believe me it is no fun to turn up at a festival with a 15 minute changeover and be confronted with a Yamaha PM1D! Especially when you have been assured by the PA company that an analogue desk will be available only for it to disappear on to another job on the day

Having said that I have used the Yamaha and InnovaSon desks on other occasions and even though it takes a little time to get used to the layers and only accessing one channel at a time found them quite 'fun' to use, particularly the PM1D which makes you feel a bit like as if you are on the Starship Enterprise!!

Sonically not bad but still IMO not as good as the Midas Heritage. Onboard gates and comps OK but I still like to use external FX.
I can see the attraction though. A small footprint and being lightweight means a lot of engineers may purchase these boards and ship them out where necessary, as indeed some have.

Interesting....I also have a TV Production background and in a previous job we had a pile of Yammy mixers...mainly O1V but some 03D as well. They were all hitting about 4 years old when I left that company but at that stage the downtime had been zero.

(As an aside, this isn't the first time I've come across such widely differing experiences of supposedly professional products...at least for once I'm on the lucky rather than unlucky side! Someday I'll tell you about the 40+ Phillips Grade 2 monitors I bought in '83!)

Similarly, my DM1000 (and the DM2000 for that matter) have both been fine so far, with fairly continuous use since last August....I'll be keeping an eye on things since your report though!

I guess the other thing to say though is that ALL equipment--analogue or digital--can suffer from this sort of thing. For example, most people in here find A&H pretty reliable and decent quality...but every so often you get somebody who has had nothing but bad experiences.

BTW Charlyfarly...know what you mean about the PM1D/Starship analogy...but if you REALLY want to "go where no man has gone before" have a look at the Digidesign Venue. Now THAT is a mixer I don't want to attack cold!

Bob

Brian,

With my DDX 3216 it depends on the show.

I have used it recently as a Radio Mic Submixer I used the MIDI Muting / Automation to help keep track of everything.

I have also used it as sole mixer for small bands

I have also used it as sole mixer for SFX playback using 4:1 panning in a small studio space.

I have also used it as sole mixer for conference work.

Bob.

Our 03d mixers are on 24:7 and get very hot (they have no internal fans) To be honest one fails every 2 months at most but that is getting more frequent now they are getting older. I have had a couple with dodgy faders and power supply issues as well.

I happened to be looking at one of our DM1000's just now and it looks like the second screen is also on its way out. Again this is on 24:7

Of course when you consider we have something like 50 03d mixers the actual MTBF is probably quite low!

James

James

I take it that would give you one channel fader per mic, without switching layers, with a separate mixer for the band, Sfx and any stage mics.

Brian

Hi all,

Have a look at this article from Acorn Antiques in LSI:

http://www.lsionline.co.uk/news/story.asp?ID=11DXMQ

It addresses some of the issues that have been brought up in this thread about digital mixing like the size of console for the space, layers etc.

Sam

Edit: Also have a look at Soundcrafts Guide to Digital Mixing. Its quite helpful for a basic introduction to digital mixing!