Hello, recently our school hired some movers we had the scaffolding up, and the light has hung on the bar, no probs, until I get screamed at by the site man doing the rigging "The *~?(! Bar is moving." The red bar was reflecting by 2 inches every-time he let go of the light. So we decided as time was short to put them on the floor



As you can see in this not so clear photo, the red bar is just hanging there, just out of shot to the right the bar goes through some concrete support, but is this not a bit dangerous? especially as there is a fair bit of weight on it.

Opinions please, before I go shouting at the company who fitted it 4 years ago. I don't know if I'm allowed to say who it was, so I wont do for the time being.

More Pics:





Joe

Moderation: Images thumbnailed

Hi Joe;
If, as you say in your profile, you are a student then you are certainly not "responsible for " rigging or any other technical feature of theatre at your school. One of your teachers is responsible even though you may do it all with little or no supervision. Not sure what you mean by site man but assume another student, staff members should know what procedure to follow.
You have done well to refrain from hanging LX when suspecting a hazard and flagging it up is absolutely correct. However you should flag it up as soon as you are aware of any problem to the relevant teacher or technician.

I couldn't comment on the standard of installation from photographs but it definitely is not a students place to "go shouting at the company that fitted it."
One possible scenario is that they fitted it all to specifications supplied by the school and that there are limits to what can be done with the LX rigging. Another is that they aren't theatre specialists and have done a job on behalf of the school, there could be many reasons which you are not aware of. They might get upset!
Whatever, well done again for not taking chances.

No-one on this forum can really give anything more than, it could be safe, it could not be safe...

First port of call would be to try and get a copy of the SWL for your WHOLE GRID! You may have been rigging x number of source 4's off y bar for 5 years and it's all been fine. However, if the total weight on that bar is exceeding its SWL and it all falls down you have an even more serious case on your hands!

Obviously a little bit of flex is normal for a bar, however 2 inches is a fair amount and if it was me in this situation I would defiantly take the lantern down and consider the options...

James

Like I said, we took the lights down, as we felt they weren't safe. However, before the mover went up (32KG) 25KG of Strand had just come down.
Its not the main scaff that is flexing but the red bars which it secures onto. However, I have asked for a SWL but the records have been lost due to moving office apparently.


Joe

A concurrent post has been automatically merged from this point on.



At my school its a bit crazy. Were closing down in 16 weeks, so were a bit short staffed, but generally, it is I who sorts out the rig, ect, but I discuss it with the relevant people first, and in some cases get them to do the work. However, thankyou for your concern.

Joe

If what I see in the images is correct - you have these red scaff tubes running across the stage, with about a couple of metres (??) of the end unsupported? It's not clear from the pictures how the bar is actually secured - but I'm assuming the fixing to the structure, just out of view is OK?

Hanging off these are another two bars running front/back on drops at two different heights. One of these is an IWB. Is this the one you tried to hang the movers on? Don't forget a mover is a very large point load, compared with a run of much lighter units, and the IWB appears to be only supported at what, 3m points? This is a bit of a bodge - but probably the only practical solution if the front/back bar has to be there, with no supports above. The scaff tubes (the red ones) will flex - the same thing happens to the overhang on the end of any bar. You then have the added problem that the bar hanging from the bar will also turn into a banana when you load it with a heavy point load. Load wise - you need to walk away from this one, because what you have is a fair bit of potential load on the end supports holding the red scaff to the roof - the system you have in place looks like it can support 'typical loads' - but you just found out that things bend, badly! If this is the case, then somebody really needs to look at what you are doing with a trained eye - as in a proper engineering eye, not our kind of eyes. Just because it bends doesn't mean it's bad - but maybe when put in, all that was asked for was a way to hang a few 650W Fresnels? Nobody knows this bar the people who did it. They could be just as horrified as you are with the idea of hanging kit like movers.

It's really not something you need to be involved in at all - this has serious implications, so it becomes SEP - Someone Else's Problem!

I suspect those bars are red for a reason...

Gareth.

care to elaborate?

I doubt it - red is pretty common as a proyective finish on steel scaff. We have some exactly the same colour, and it's often seen on RSJs too.

I understand your concerns, but to be honest, as a student it's not your place to take on the responsibility for this - and definitely not your place to go 'shouting' at installers (unless you have a strange fondness for being told to f**k off ...).

You were right to make a last-minute alteration to your plans when it became apparent that the bars woulnd't support the weight of the units that you were trying to rig on them - it would've been stupidity to have pressed on regardless, so you made the right choice to call a halt. But it's not up to you to go looking for someone to blame - you didn't spec the install, you didn't engage the contractors, you didn't manage the project and you didn't pay the bill. As Paul says, it's an SEP.

To be honest, if your school is closing down in four months anyway, then why worry about it? Just make do with doing whatever you can safely achieve for that time, and then you won't have to worry about it any more because the school's shut down!

it's also very common as a protective finish on water/heating pipes - and my first reaction on seeing those photos, was "Surely they've not hung the bars from the plumbing..."

Ditto.

TBH, I personally have never seen a red scaff tube in a theatre's grid (only water pipes and DREADED aspirated fire detection pipes). Turns out that such things exist after all!

Just seems really strange that they didn't paint them black... Obviously there is a reason, ranging from:

"So no one will get confused and hang stage lighting off them."
to
"I'm the architect and I say it will look nice!"
to
"We only quoted to paint the walls and roof black, if you want pipes as well that's extra..."

Gareth.

Just to mirror Gareths comment, while this post keeps trucking on . . .

The school is closing in 4 months. Theres no point worrying about it and also - because of this reason, I would think that no money would get spent on fixing the problem anyway.

You did the right thing and used your common sense (however if a school student shouted at me in the way you shouted at that contractor you would be fondly getting to know my size 10 steel-capped boot)

So from now until closure , just keep anything heavy off those bars and be aware of whats being rigged on them.

From the OP;

I took this to mean he (the student) got shouted at (inappropriately) by an employee of the building who was doing the rigging (not the student themselves) ?

Edit: Clarified quotation

The red paint usually is red oxide primer, it has longer life than the standard paint but basically a cheaper alternative to galvanising. I use it allot when welding its great as an under coat and stops new welds from oxidising and rusting.



As for the grid I would find out the load bearing of the grid I would probably expect that the grid was designed for generic lighting couple of source 4’s, compact Fresnel not moving lights. From experience schools usually purchase the minimum lighting, sound etc as it is not really in the schools interest. There interest is teaching you what the government say which is not technical (presuming this is a secondary school) yes it good for the school to have a rig to help enhance assemblies and school shows but its hardly a working theatre that needs 50 plus moving heads; There for I hardly expect its designed for 5 or 6 35KG moving heads but the best thing you could do is find out the load bearing on it.



As for shouting at the installers probably not the best idea especially the fact its not your grid and technically your not responsible for it, if you rang me up and had a go I would put the phone strait down on you that’s after you knew what I thought of you. And just remember one thing watch out for the toes you tread on today as you may have to kiss them tomorrow (they may be potential future employer)

as it all looks fairly new, by all means phone up the contractor and ask if he has any record of the work done and the specifications of what was done, but remember they don't have to do this so being nice will be the key.

But, if your closing, why bother?

Jon

I wonder if you missed seeing the fact that the OP is a student? Which means he is hardly the right person to be directly contacting the installation contractor.

Kerry put it well in post #2-



David

wel if he is nice and polite as suggested he shouldn't have a problem and if he doesn't, what does he have to lose?

I find the "student not contacting a contractor" rather amusing. At my school (admittedly is was a public school so slightly different) it was not uncommon for several of us students to contact contractors, collect quotes, take the quote directly to the bursary to get it approved, engage the contractor (although using a PO issued by central admin obviously), supervise them carrying our the work and then say goodbye...

I can see in this case that with a ? safety issue then yes, the problem should be flagged immediately to higher authorities but I see no problem with a student then explaining that he is going to contact the contractor to ask for clarification?

I think some people may need to broaden their ideas of what students are capable of...

Oh and any contractor who the school used (in the theatre, live events, art department, school radio among others) who DIDN'T treat a polite enquiry from a pupil with respect would find rather quickly that that department would not be using their services again (I refer to the Size 10 boot comment).

Surely your reference to contractor is with regards to hiring lighting / noise equipment and arranging an engineer to baby sit is it not? I find it quite hard to believe that a school would allow students to plan and execute major alterations to the fabric of the building (which the installation of a theatre is) as they see fit...

I think your find that the pupil was actually going to be 'shouting' at the contractors concerned. Dosent sound like a 'polite enquiry' to me

Bottom Line is that there is a problem and what the OP needs to be doing is talking to the teachers not ringing the people who installed it! As people have said on many posts on this forum students cannot be incharge of the technical stuff at schools because in the end the resposibility cannot be dropped on there heads.

My suggestion to the Op would be talk to you teacher and explain the situation. Dont try and contact the supplier because that is not your problem.

sam

We've got lots. And that is the reason. Same architect put the platforms for follow spots above the roof trussing.

At least you have followspot platforms...!

On topic, so long as the teacher in charge/caretaker has been spoken to, and is happy for the student to contact the original installer to politely ask if they happen to have a copy of the original SWL certificates in a filing cabinet somewhere, I can't see a problem with them doing so.

Obviously there would be a line as to how far the student could take this enquiry. For example, if the company said "no, but we could come and re-test for you for £xxx if you like", this would be crossing it, but if they said "yes we do, would you like us to fax you a copy" then the documents could be sent through FAO the teacher/caretaker. No harm done, and a lesson has been learnt by the student in both dealing with companies and safe working practices, the teacher/caretaker hasn't been distracted from their 'normal' duties, and the school now has the SWL data on file.

I agree that the student bears no responsibility for the actual safety of the structure, but going through the process of phoning up on behalf of their teacher/caretaker (with their permission) would surely not cause any harm?

Ian

Student lead is the current buzz-word in education.
We do get students to phone companies from time to time. This helps them to develop commercial communication skills and build confidence.

Obviously they can't commit to spending, but then when it comes to it, neither can I! They can obtain quotes and get their teachers to sign off the purchase orders, in the same way a lot of us here would get the boss to sign off purchase orders.

Ummmm... no..... try the design, construction and equipping of a broadcast radio station in the basement of a school building....

And yes, in this instance perhaps it wasn't going to be a polite enquiry and I rarely see a reason to not have good manners, my point is more that if a contractor has messed up then I would not see a difference between a staff member contacting the contractor and a pupil doing so. Especially if it is the pupil who has the relationship with the contractor.

Wow, that does surprise me that students were given the power to award building contracts as they saw fit! If you wanted to do something like that in a commercial environment you would have to go through several tiers of management who would often out source certain aspects of the design and supervisory processes.
It must have been a great learning experience for the students involved (not to mentioned phenomenally rewarding upon completion)!

It's not a case of "as they saw fit" there was a committee who raised all the sponsorship money for the project (having Sir Howard Stringer as an Old Boy certainly helped with getting cheap Sony kit!) and budgets and expenditure was chosen by then. As I said final sign off on spending of that magnitude had to come from the bursary and all building work had to be signed off by the facilities management people but my point is that pupils had no more or less of a say in the decision making and money spending process than teachers did.