Im currently working on a small project.. more a labour of love with a group of the very talented individuals, The show will play in the west end only for a week and a such we are putting this together on a very tight budget.

Im looking for a number of Students studying lighting design in the london area who would be interested in some work experience and getting involved in the build and strike of the show. You would be working under one of my crew chiefs who is very experienced with theatre installs and has headed the build team for a number of prominent west end shows as well as touring shows all over the world. I am also looking for an assistant lighting director to work directly with me for the build, shows and strike day.

I hope that this opportunity would provide the right people with an invaluable learning opportunity. Please have a look at my online Resume for details of my past projects and design work. I have had some great experiences offering student tours and work experience on some of my other shows recently and have had great feedback, but this is the first time I have had the opportunity to be able to offer it in the UK.

The lighting rig is quite small at around 40 Movers and 40 Generics, but I have some quite demanding time limits to work with.

There are a couple of conditions you must be over 18 (Governed by my Insurance) and I am ideally looking for at least 1 female due to the nature of the show. (only applies to any backstage work during the shows) You must be able to get yourself to the west end easily each day and be able to work Friday 19th Feb to Monday 22nd Feb for the build and Sunday 28th for the Strike and all evenings in between for the show days.

I also know that the Stage Management department would love to find a couple of students to help with set and props for the build.

Please send me your information (PM) if you are interested along with details of any experience you may have and why you think you would be good for the project.

Thanks I look forward to hearing from you.

Nick

Thanks for the replies.. I am still looking for an assistant director and female lighting student... if your interested PM me.

Well I am not normally one for this but I actually feel quite strongly about it and would love to get other peoples opinions who are working full time in the industry.

From the post below and from a few select emails out to Colleges and Universities offering the same opportunity, I kept coming upon the same response from students. "We need to be paid for the work and are not interested In working for free" Now normally I am well known for making sure that all my crew are compensated properly for all their work but in this situation I simply did not have any money but instead was offering the opportunity to work with some of the best and most current names in the business.

Had I been a student I would have snapped up the opportunity instantly. I remember when I first started I spent at least 2 - 3 years working for Nothing or enough money to buy a sandwich and a bus fair home.. in those years I would do anything my aim was to see as many different shows and LD's work so that I could learn from it all. I was at shows 7 nights a week and often quizzing the LD on how they did certain things.. why they did the patch like that etc... I believe it was in those years that I developed my abilities and skills far more than anytime after..

I am still shocked by some of the responses I got, maybe its a change in the times but still I have always found that ability will only get you so far.. Attitude will get you the rest of the way. The teams I build for shows are all based on people I like working with and spending time with.. and would never hire anyone with the you get what you pay for attitude!

When we went into this project the whole creative team decided it was something that we would like to do, we would put a small team of very experienced crew into key positions and have enough volunteers from the industry to be able to run the show but then to flesh it out with students who could learn from everyone and we all agreed to spend time with them answering questions and showing them things we had learnt.

So it wasn't all bad new.. I did get a group of students we had 3 LX and 4 Stage and 3 wardrobe. They were all wonderful each one of them commented that they had learnt more in 10 days than months at college, which was great and exactly what we had hoped for. In fact the show will run again shortly and we have now hired them all to be part of the crew.

I guess I just wanted to know the general feeling about getting work experience for free these days..? what are your thoughts?

Personally, I would jump at any chance to be involved in anything involving lighting. Obviously, this doesn't meant that I would drop everything and run, as I do have a lot of things on, but would endeavor my hardest to do so. Yes, I'm still young and learning and would probably not want to 'volunteer' for the rest of my life. However, I find that this industry is something which you really need experience in to make it successful for you. I would have applied, however, I unfortunately (from the theater/event perspective at least, not necessarily the weather ) I live in Australia and opportunities are very hard to come by.

If anyone does want my help, feel free to ask, I live in Perth.

My 2c.

Alex

Forget about being a student, I'd have bitten your arm off for a chance like that noe were it not for having to pay the bills (and having only just gotten back from BDO in Australia (Alex next time I'll drop you a line before I go)).

Like you, when I was a student I worked on every show I could and virtually always for free. I understand that there are a lot of people out there that will take advantage of you if you're prepared to work for free but people often seem to forget that they are getting something out of it themselves. OK I got taken for a ride a few times too but I also formed life long friendships with people I still work for/with today. The chance to learn from sombody who is doing the job you want to do is invaluable.

To be honest, I didn't see your original post, if I had I would have seriously considered replying. I love working with other LD's who are prepared to take the time to share thoughts and discuss ideas and methods of working. I know that others will say that it devalues the labour or that it puts professionals out of work and I can see that argument as well. But I really do feel that there is a MASSIVE difference between the "proffit share" adverts you so regularly see on Stage Jobs Pro which are looking for people that can already do the job and are prepared to work independently for free and your post which clearly states that you're expecting to almost teach people what it's like in a real world situation.

I totally agree with this, It was a huge shame that I don't live near London or I would have jumped at the opportunity. I can understand why some students would want some kind of gain (financially) from the project, but in this industry, so I have been told, the more work and just gerneral experiance you can get, the better!

I have been recently aproched from the local collage putting on a show to do lighting, and they cant pay anything, but I am jumping for it mainly for the experiance. What may not benifit you now may well benifit you in the future is what I think anyway...

I totally agree. I think expecting pay for experience in this industry demonstrates the wrong attitude. Like you (and I'm sure the vast majority of others here) I worked for a few years for free. I was just delighted that I was given the chance and never even considered being paid for it at the time.

Having said that I do constantly get requests for experience and none ever expect payment, so perhaps what you saw was just the result of actually advertising the opportunity.

I'd have to say I am heartened by the responses you are getting, and TBH I am surprised and saddened you aren't getting into big trouble with our Unions and professional associations for even advertising like this. Everyone wants something for nothing, but to hear of a production which is going into the west end for a week asking for free crew, no - sorry, there are national agreements in place with fixed fees and minimum wages, which are supposed to stop just this type of thing. I certainly did lots of work for very little pay when a student, and on occasion I ended up not getting paid when I was supposed to be, but I never did work for free intentionally, and never will.

I think the "I need to be paid attitude" can be understandable. Certainly we at the RSAMD get bombarded with emails offering us "amazing experiences" with "big names" etc. Unfortunately these usually end up being loading a transit for some new company who are, well, nobody. In these cases, where the students are either learning or being taught nothing and just being used as free labour I don't think it's unreasonable.

I've done one free gig since I ended up here, which was working with some great people (and a famous crazy Russian contemporary performance group). I really enjoyed it, got expenses covered, got to know people. All on a weekend where I wasn't really doing anything anyway. This was good, but it seems to be a rare thing.

Nick, I'm glad your guys had a good time. It's nice to hear when these things go well. But I think you're right there has been a clear shift in the way these placements/volunteer things work - and not for the better.

Could almost merge this thread with one about `profit share` jobs on Stage Pro or whatever site...

Absolutely no disrespect intended to yourself Nick, you are obviously the genuine article, a professional lighting designer at the very top of your business offering an opportunity.

Genuine opportunities are very, very rare.

Freeloading theatrical producers,night club owners, club night runners, festival promoters, student bands, bands on the way up and the way down, architects, artists, plain fantasists and yah yahs spending Daddies dosh are unfortunately very common.

Difficult at times to sort out from which group anyone offering an `opportunity` might actually belong.

It is also the only BUSINESS where people used to be commonly expected to do hard physical labour for free, even Nurses , also very much a calling, get paid during training.

Haven`t heard of anyone working for 6 months on building site for free to learn how to be a brickie.

Really think the attitude that working for free is the norm needs to be so last century.

An opportunity of working with a top name lighting designer in exchange for pushing cases may be seen as fair exchange.

An `opportunity` to light some experimental theatre on profit share may be no opportunity at all, only got so many fingers to get burnt.

I am a university student-- I often did gigs for free up until this year. Now I am trying to get paid something (how much depending on what type of show) on most shows... to cover my costs on doing the show (personal kit, transportation, food). However, had this been here, I would have JUMPED at the opportunity. There's a BIG difference between someone offering an opportunity... and someone wanting free labor because they can't or won't hire a crew. Nick certainly is in the first category. I do understand how this can get out of control.-- I'm currently having issues with a group that seems to keep "forgetting" to pay me and "losing" paperwork. However Nick certainly seemed to have good intentions with this... and the students benefited.

Hey guys thanks for the replies it makes me feel much better to know that other people out there share the same ideas as me, when it comes to learning this trade and I hope that I get the opportunities to share this with more people in the future.



I think you need to re-read my original posts. at no time did I need free crew, I already had enough professional crew booked on this job to make it happen, I simply had the opportunity to provide students who wanted to learn the opportunity to be involved and feel part of a proper production. They got to learn from myself and from the guys I had hired who together had over 40 years of west end experience. We treated them as a full part of the crew but each was shadowed by one of my guys who would give advice and answer questions about tasks they had to do. I like the opportunity to give back, a lot of big name LD's helped me when I was starting and I think its very important that people coming into the industry are given the opportunity to shine.. Im finding it harder and harder to find really good crew these days and our week of shows really inspired me to do more like this and we found some really good people who because of there commitment and willingness to work I have hired for the rest of the year (all at wages in line with equity)

One final point.. I still do shows for free and always will. If I will learn from it or it will help builds a useful relationship then for me its worth it. Yes as everyone says you do get ######ed over by doing this and I have been many times 2 recent examples cost me tens of thousands of pounds in lost earnings. but I have found that there are still times when its right and have built many many strong relationships because of my attitude and those of the people I put in my team.

As a student, I would have jumped at the opportunity to do something like this. As people have already mentioned, there is a clear difference between a genuine educational opportunity, and someone just trying to take advantage. My main interest is in stage management, but I have recently done my first lighting design, and very much enjoyed it and found it interesting. If any opportunities like this arise in future, I will definitely be making my interest known.

Had I seen this topic when you first posted it, I would have been writing the email before I'd finished reading!

On the one hand, even though Lighting is not the area I invisage myself ending up, you can learn something from everything, and it sounds like it was an amazing opportunity.

On the other, I have been used for free labour in the past, to the point where I was asked to work for companies (for quite a while, I hasten to add) until I mentioned the possibility of expenses (petrol/a train fare type expenses), and then I didn't hear from them again. It got to the stage where I wasn't learning anything, and I felt that for two days of 12-16 hour work busy all the time, as well as a 170-mile commute before and after, I should have received more than a thanks and a meal voucher.

2p!
Chris

I really wish I'd seen this sooner, I consider any opportunity to learn a good one! plus I'm female and really enjoy lighting! Its nice to see someone willing to give time and effort into helping someone else gain the opportunity of experience, its quite rare in my area and wouldn't have minded travelling at all! if you do any thing like this again please post, hopefully more people would consider the experience over financial benefit more seriously, thanks for taking the time any way!

You may not have said it but it was the impression I got from your post

It's great that you had a full professional crew but what you said was that sounded to me like you had 1 paid person to supervise lots of students.

I also think that trying to find students 2 weeks before you require them is always going to be difficult, what kind of course are they on if it is not planned what they will be doing more than 2 weeks in advance.


I don't and never will. I still learn things on all the jobs I do but selling my skills and knowledge is how I pay my bills and put shoes on my kids feet it is not a hobby. I've taken work that I new would be hell from beginning to end because they pay, this is the reality for most people.

Try telling a builder the you have a really interesting extension that you want building for free.....

I agree completely, but still, it must be nice to live in a world where you are so comfortably off that you can afford to work for free - sadly for most of us struggling from one month, or week, to the next just to exist that's just fantasy land.

In which case it may be you who’s losing out, by cutting yourself off from some of the best crew you’ll never get to meet - all for the sake of a few quid. Pity.



That’s the impression I got, too. I think it was the bit that said…


…which created it for me.


That said, I’m glad to hear you got the crew you needed, Nick. I’m glad that they felt some benefit from the exercise and that it will result in some paid work for them in the near future.

You might be surprised to read that I actually do have some respect for what you’re trying to do and would like to see it continue. It’s just that I think the model you’re using is flawed, always was and is wholly inappropriate for our times. I hope that what I’m about to say will encourage you to see things a little differently.

I still believe that unpaid gigs actually take opportunity away from people, especially those who have the least of it - people from poorer backgrounds, who can't afford to work for free - and that jobs like this prevent opportunities from being awarded on merit - to those who genuinely show the most promise.

Not everyone comes from a nice, comfy, middle class background and has the Bank of Mummy and Daddy to fund their early career moves.

I think it’s utterly wrong to equate the ability to work for free with the “right attitude” and that this in itself, is a very negative attitude, which may be deeply hurtful to those who are disadvantaged by it.

Why should it fall to those at the bottom of the ladder and need the most support, to invest in the future? Shouldn’t the industry put it’s hands in its pockets and take a financially more proactive stance in creating of the kind of skilled workforce it needs, in order to advance live ents through the 21st Century?

I’m fed up with the idea that you have to live on the edge of poverty, to be true to your craft; that you should have to prove yourself through suffering and fall over backwards with gratitude, anytime someone asks you to work on their show. I argue that we need more people with the self-confidence to place a material value on what they produce for a living, and fewer unambitious self-haters, who see showbusiness as a way to cocoon themselves from the slings and arrows of the Real World, so they can float along in their own little luvvie reality bubble, which they expect everyone else to pay for.

Yes, things have changed - certainly since I was at college, almost thirty years ago. For one thing, students don’t get grants to spend any more, they get loans which have to be repaid. Each and every graduate in the UK starts their working life with a five figure debt to pay off. Some of them find that their shiny new degree doesn’t automatically qualify them for the work the want to do and that further study is required - at considerable, additional expense.

There have also been calls from management over the last 8-10 years, for crew to be more businesslike in their approach to work and stop treating the whole thing like a game. This is something I’m all for; but the reverse side of the coin, is that people are going to expect to be at least recompensed, if not actually rewarded for their labours - and why shouldn’t they be?

As I’ve said before: I fully agree, that you can’t expect to earn top dollar when you’re still a student or fresh out of college, but I don’t see why you shouldn’t be paid the National Minimum Wage, especially as it’s been shown by BECTU, to be a legal requirement - one which you, Nick, appear to have ignored, by co-opting these people onto your production - no matter how noble your intentions were.

And if it turns out that they were illegally employed, can you really be sure that they would have been covered by your insurance, had the unthinkable happened?

Like I said: I admire what you’re doing up to a point; but I think you need to take a look at the way you’re doing it.

€0.02

It's robbery unless it does actually benefit the student.

Wow... someone made a comment in another thread about the Americans having it right... well we do. Internships that are amazing, "Internships" at dumps that want free labor, and everything in between gets advertised... and people have the right to decide what they want to do. Why is half the BR community tearing into Nick for trying to do something good? I don't know Nick, but I do know other top level LDs, and they aren't about to use a bunch of students and one guy supervising it because their reputation is on the line each and every show they do. I really doubt that Nick would have put something together that didn't have the professional crew needed to ensure the show happens then post about it on the UK's biggest technical theatre forum. The guys I know/ work with you don't come anywhere NEAR doing anything important for a show without complete supervision until you have more than proved yourself.

Can we please stop insulting him... or are you going to take away valuable opportunities for students because of this silliness?

Right, well I work as a pro LD - mostly for corporate / event work - and I also teach BTEC Theatre production at an academy in London. Because of this, when possible and/or appropriate , I always try and take one or two of the students with me to the odd job.

Before hand, I would always check with the production company or client if its ok and 9/10 times, its fine.

Im not taking them to be an extra pair of hands wheeling around flight cases or doing tedious jobs like taping down cables or even doing tea runs. Their brief is to shadow me or sound / LX crew , stage guys etc - to watch and observe what goes on, to help with tasks maybe and at at convenient moments, to ask questions and so on. They should also be taking notes and taking photos.

This helps them enormously with their study. They can learn more in a day 'on the job' than they could doing 6 lessons in a theatre. While on site, they were fed and watered and needed for nothing. I also had advised them to bring a few nibbles of their own for peckish moments inbetween lunch and tea breaks

The students are well mannered , respectfull, get-on well with the pro crew and take part in the banter etc!! One of them already has been asked to help as a general crew member for a couple of jobs in their summer holidays and I will be using the 2 students who show more interest in lighting to come along with me on a couple of jobs: paid crew as follow-spot ops. (give the truck drivers some time off! hehe)

In this day and age mostly because of the cost of everything - travel etc, I dont think its appropriate to expect anyone to work for free - regardless of your intentions. At least an offer of food / drinks, some or all of travel expenses should be paid.

If I had been a student and seen Nicks post - I truely would of been banging on his front door to let me take part- and showed my commitment, and hard work to the production BUT would of at least made sure 'the above' was provided!!

I dont think Nick went about it the wrong way at all. Its a pity there arnt more opportunities for young people to get Ist hand experience in a totally real / live situation .

Wow.. Thanks for the responses.. points taken.



I already have an amazing crew full of people exactly like I described theres about 100 from all over the world who I pretty much keep in employment all year round, please feel free ask any of them if they think Im saving a few quid when they are hired.. Its pretty well known that my crew is the most expensive in the business, but thats because they are in my opinion the best. I did say I would never hire someone with the "your get what you pay for attitude" which is totally true.. I didn't say I wouldn't pay what I thought they were worth which can sometimes be much much more than they ever thought to ask for themselves. when was the last time you were offered $10,000 for a couple of weeks work?? my best guys easily get that plus sitting up the front for long haul flights, don't worry if I think your worth looking after I will make sure you are.

The majority of my show are ridiculously hard work and I couldn't do them to my exceptional standard without my guys around me. At work I ask an amazing amount from them, I do know that. I need them to be able to deliver and they do time after time with no complaining, they are worth there weight in gold and I would do anything for them. So please do not tell me that I am trying to save a few quid here and there or ill never meet the best people..

I simply had the opportunity to be able to give something back to people who want to learn about real show situations and Im glad I did and would do it again tomorrow. I actually learnt from them too...!!!

As for insurance, please don't worry yourself about that I am more than covered.



Thank you. The students were indeed looked after as per your thoughts.. I would be happy to talk further privately about being able to offer your students some more and different opportunities if you would like.

And TheLightsTech Thank You too you hit the nail on the head and I completely agree, the American intern program is a great idea, nothing prepares you for the politics you face at the high level of this business more than working with someone involved in it and really when you get to that level 90% of you job is just that.

To everyone who thinks what I offered is a bad idea then simply don't worry about it, Im not forcing you to take it.. for those who want the opportunity it will be there again for those who don't then thats fine too.

Nick, I'm fully aware of and very much respect your work and reputation, which I'm not trying to denigrate in any way. I'm not saying you should stop doing this, I don't think it's a bad idea per se and I hope you will take my criticisms constructively.

FWIW I don't think you were trying to deceive anybody, but I do believe that - in this case and despite your honest and best intentions - the OP constituted a call for working crew and went beyond the boundaries of a simple work experience opportunity. I think this is evidenced by a clearly-stated requirement to perform work, according to a pre-defined schedule. It was not a simple opportunity to shadow, take pics, ask questions and get a chance to help with the odd thing or two.

I therefore believe that the students who were hired, should - in this case - have been paid the National Minimum Wage (hardly a fortune), in accordance with UK Employment Law. I also believe that this is ultimately a small part of a much wider issue, about how we treat ourselves and each other in the workplace.

Have a look at BECTU's Work Experience Guidelines as linked to by dbuckley in another thread. I hope you'll find them useful.

While I can see both sides of the argument in this case, as somebody outside the industry I do have some sympathy with those who are concerned about the possible exploitation of students. Nick has an impressive portfolio on his website but the student won’t know in advance whether or not the experience will result in a worthwhile addition to her CV – if all you’re doing is box pushing or coiling cables, then it probably doesn’t make much difference whether it’s on an international Kylie tour or down at the local pub.

It wasn’t clear from Nick’s post, but I assume that at least some of the performers and production staff were paid – if so, then was it not possible for the funds available to be divided between everybody involved?

I’d be interested to know what the assistant lighting director actually did in this case – was there any directing involved or was it more assisting than directing? Similarly, how did the others fill their time – was it ‘quizzing the LD’ (or crew chief etc.) or was it providing muscle, runners etc for the benefit of those in charge?

Perhaps the answer is, as suggested by others, to channel future offers mainly through colleges or other institutions who can vouch for the bona fides of the ‘employer’ as well as weeding out students who might not make the most of the opportunities offered.

The trouble is, that when presented with an offer such as Nick’s, those at the bottom of the ladder, who most need the opportunities, will simply see ‘ number of talented individuals, …..prominent West End shows,….. invaluable learning opportunity, ……touring shows all over the world …….etc.’ and unfortunately in some cases this will lead to exploitation and disillusionment. Those of us who are older and more cautious,( if not wiser), are more able to get the whole picture in advance.

If I’d been nearer to London and 30 years younger then I might well have taken up Nick’s offer – but then I can afford to take a week off without pay and if things didn’t live up to expectation then I would not have suffered any great loss. Most of those who are about to enter or have just entered the industry do not have that luxury.

Sorry lightnix but I have to put my halfpenny in here.

I spent a summer at the Liverpool Playhouse working under Chief Robert Longthorne in 1980 - about 8 weeks of getting up at stupid o'clock, a 20 mile train trip to Lime Street, a 12 hour day then home again. I "worked" for the Playhouse as an unpaid casual for the summer and gained an awful lot of experience : if I was only allowed to watch and ask questions I would probably have lost interest and applied for a job at Ford's up the road !!

During those 8 weeks the thought of getting paid never crossed my mind - it was my choice to invest the time and I thankful to this day I was able to do it. A lot of the things I learnt from Robert I still use today.

If people are given all the information and know exactly what the gig is - they can make up their own minds whether tyo do it or not.

Of course, there are folk out there who will abuse the free labour market but that's perhaps for another thread....................

ttfn

By all means, Sir; although I'm the one who's sorry - as you appear to have missed my point


And it was great that you had that opportunity and that you came (as I did) from a family who could afford for you and me to do that kind of thing and then go swanning off to drama school and all that. But what about those who didn't have that luxury; who couldn't afford the train fares and cost of food every day and were forced into a menial summer job?


Fair comment, but work experience doesn't have to be hands-off, QED. The NMW regs and BECTU guidelines are not simply about stopping people from doing things and what you are allowed / not allowed to do. Properly applied, they are about enabling people to fulfil potentials, by protecting them from unnecessary risk - and that doesn't just mean physical harm.


But again: what if they really want to take up the opportunity but don't have the resources?


That's almost half a lifetime ago - things have changed since then. We never left college with thumping great student loans to pay off.


It's a shame you say that, as though it's carved in stone. Don't you think we, as professionals, have a responsibility to work against that kind of thing?

See this is just it, most offering the places don't which is why a lot of students do get 'bad' opportunities and experience. Legitimacy is the key.

I do however believe that it is down to the student on whether they take the experience and carry it out. I do work experience as a student in fact I've got some this weekend and I'm really looking forward to it. Work experience paid or not does give you a sense of 'the real world'. I did mention it was robbery but that may have been harsh. What I meant by that was that experience is always going to do you well but as a student you are striving to learn how to make money so any opportunity that is 'said' to be of use is like dangling a carrot in front of a donkey. When people have big budgets and you know it you do wonder why they aren't paying you.There is also only so much 'experience' you can take, the problem is that of opportunity. Do you let someone else have the place and you miss out on the one experience that would help your career? You're stook in a loop but I find it always better to take the work experience bad or not as it adds to my knowledge good or bad, others don't. You do feel a little let down when nothing comes of it and they say 'you've worked really hard' or 'you'd fit in well around here', you do feel ripped off slightly because it basically means that you just have the ability to say hello to someone in the future, not work with them.

Jerome