Hi guys,
im new to this forum and have scouring the heaps of information that has been put on the boards, which has been of great help.

I have 3 questions but firstly abit of background info to make it easier to answer.

Firstly im a musician not an engineer so this is all new to me so I'll apologise if I seem alittle thick with my queries.
I play for a bhangra band(im sure one of you guys has probably engineered us at a mela/festival).
After being unable to find a local PA company to fulfill our requirements, I've become very interested in buying my own PA gear and learning how it all works.

As a band, we're basically 1 main vocalist, 6 musicians and 3 b.v's. we mainly do weddings and parties in hotels or big halls from 500-1000ppl all indoors. Hope this info has painted the pic.


Question 1. The desk I think I want is the A&H gl2400(which ive used alittle) what would be the best place to source one of these from? would I be able to have a 6way monitor mix, delay, reverb on this desk as it has 6auxs and a 7x4matrix?

Question 2. I've heard the martin audio h3 + s218 as FOH and really liked it, im after about 4-5kw system, would this be good? are there any other systems you would recomend??anybody got any I could listen to?

Question 3. As monitors we've used the MB4's, which are an awesome speaker interms of spl(isn't it a rcf driver, which 1?) but they're £1300ish each new, could you recommend any replacements??must be relatively same interms of power as MB4?

I apologise about the lack of knowledge within my questions and hope somebody could enlighten me or even show me as im in Birmingham and would be willing to travel for a demo.
I understand there are other things I need to consider (amplifiers, outboard, mics, wiring....) but I think I need to be sure of these things first.

Thanks for reading.

Hardip.

You don't say where abouts you are based, this would help us a lot in answering your question.

Josh

Moderation: Yes he does..., Brum.

Hiya

GL2400 great desk if you can afford it also same for the Martin Blackline but there are plenty of other systems which are good I.e.

1. D & B C7
2. HK audio projector

Wedges are all much of a muchness and you should be able to get a 15 & 1 wedge for about £350 from ebay or concert trade maybe also LMC

I apologise about the lack of knowledge within my questions and hope somebody could enlighten me or even show me as im in Birmingham and would be willing to travel for a demo.
I understand there are other things I need to consider (amplifiers, outboard, mics, wiring....) but I think I need to be sure of these things first.

You say you have had people engineer you at festivals and the likes, can you not go to these people/companies and ask them to do the same for you as a band?

Josh

If I were speccing it then my idea would run slightly like this:

1) That desk doesn't have a built in reverb... try something like the TC M1 as a good starter.

2) Don't spec speaker systems according to watts. As long as the amp is big enough then watts don't matter. Think about SPL. How big a venue, and how loud? What shape - short end of the rectangle, long end of a rectangle, or in the round?

3)Martin F15, Turbo TXD 15M, Old Martin LE400. If they have to be biamped I'd run them off behringer DCX 2496 or bss minidrives, depending on budget, and probs thomann TA2400s or QSC PLX2 if you've got the money.

In terms of suppliers then if all else fails, then AC will be able to get hold of the stuff. Remember that no-one pays list price!

M

Yeah we have, but it was our engineers duty so I stayed out the way, in the last 3yrs we've had about 6 companies and it starts off well then either they inflate their prices extortionately or the service goes down the pan. I'd say we do about 30 gigs a yr with hired PA all around the country from edinburgh to southampton...

So as I'd like to get into this as abit of a hobby and sideline business I want to do it properly.
with the help of the professionals.

There are only a few members on here who I would trust to be able to really advise you on gigs this size in a one night per venue context.

Paraphrasing what a couple of those people have said. The Turbosound TQ440/TQ445 is apparently a very good and loud speaker and at £2100 each retail I would hope so too. There is also an Active Powered Version that negates the need for an Amplifier.

I have however used the GL2400 so I can comment on that. It is a great desk that is well made. However if you want 6 Monitor Mixes Plus effects you're really looking at the GL2800 to give you enough Aux sends for 6 Monitor Mixes plus Effects.

Changed active to powered at Rob's request to avoid confusion.

Josh

Cheers Matt

Also with that desk will I be able to have a 6way mix with delay and reverb??

Ive managed to get our spec list and our engineer has put on there Lexicon PCM70, Yamaha SPX990......

he's quite old skool so im guessing these are old units and there must be better units similar to these in the market...

In terms of venues, its difficult as their all different some hold 500 some 1000, some have carpeted floors some are wooden floors, high roof(echo) and low roof(10ft) I need a versatile happy medium.

I think we need a good short throw, simply being most of our gigs the dance floor normally is square directly infront of us (holding about 200ppl)and the older buggers who sit nearer the back always will complain about the loudness.

So for E.g if I were to go with the Blackline H3 + S218, the spec says amp needed 800 - 2000w into 4ohms, what would you say is ideal???
(amp say Crown Macro Tech MA-5002VZ 1800 x 2 @ 4ohms , or is this too much/less) I don't wanna push then too much but I want them earning their keep.

for your 3rd answer I think I need to do alitte research interms of the SSE MB4 and find out what components are in there. from that I can look at similarities.

Lets call it "powered", particularly in this case as it saves the confusion as it is already an active box, meaning it requires 2 amplifier channels per box.

Cheers josh thought so,

any idea what these SHOULD retail at brand new and 2nd hand?

Also, not keen on POWERED(hha..) FOH, I prefer passive.
Thanks

To be honest, people like Rob are the best to advise you any further than I have already as I don't have any further experience with the equipment being discussed.

I bow to those with the greater knowledge.

Josh

Unless you are going to be running the desk in a rather unusual way, then there's not enough aux sends. You need one for each monitor send plus one for each effects send. Matrix sends are not usually used for effects or monitors, as they only take feeds from the groups, L, R & M outs. *

You really need to step up to something like a GL2800.



*This is on the GL2400 - I know some desks (especially many digital ones) have other options)

Yeah thought so, just needed an educated confirmation.
the GL2800 it is then.

Thanks.

He might be old skool (and there certainly is nothing wrong with that!) and those units might be getting on a bit but they are still in the top favourites as FX units and are seen on a lot of riders and in FX racks all over the world!

Yamaha SPX900 and Yamaha SPX1000 and the latest SPX2000 are all decent units.
The Lexicon has gone through to the PCM81, PCM91 and now the PCM96. Again all very slick products.

They're a big desk. Looking at big boxes too, and most likely big amps to drive them. lots of monitors, and amps to drive them, not to mention the bands backline and instruments, any stagewear/costumes / set. Lighting. DO you have the VOSA Checkpoint POI for your sat nav?

?????DO you have the VOSA Checkpoint POI for your sat nav????

Hi Rob,

From your previous response's and checking out your company website you seem to be a man in the know, when it comes to martin audio blackline series.

We have used them in the past and I was blown away by the quality of the speaker and clarity of the sound plus from the looks of the people on the dancefloor I think they had a good time too.
from my memory the amp rack for those and it consisted of 2x MA4.2s. 1 for H3's and 1 for S218's is that right then 3 Crown Macrotech MA 2400's for the 6way monitor mix(is that right) of 6 SSE MB'4s.

Does that sound right??

I'm looking to basically copy this, but interms of weight reduce the amps the MA's are light but the crowns are seriously heavy.

How about the lab gruppen 4000 would these compare?

It's all very heavy though isn't it. Even with lightweight amps. Transportation is getting more expensive by the day, and carrying big boxes around for increasingly tighter budgets is nobodies idea of fun. The H3's and S218's DO sound good, but they're BIG. And no louder than a TQ445 and TQ425 combination. which is well under half the weight.

Just to toss in another option, much as I like the GL2800, in this day and age I'd probably look at a digital console like the LS9-32. This is a smaller lighter box than the GL2800 and has the added advantage of having pretty well all your outboard needs included in the price and weight. Gate and compression on every channel, and the included effects are similar to the Yamaha SPX boxes your engineer has already specced.

In the long run, it could save you money...and a lot of back strain!

Bob

Yeah I was looking at the yamaha m7cl first but our engineer has said NO DIGITAL.
He's also said no Midas desks, I don't know why but were at a gig today do I'm gonna ask him.
Plus after speaking to various musicians and engineers in the bhangra industry don't like digital desks they all prefer analogue.

Well, I have to say that, if your budget would stretch to the M7CL level, it would be a no brainer for me. The M7 is a lovely desk, easy to use and full of facilities. It's gained a huge acceptance at the professional end of the industry. Still, I guess it's his choice.

His "no Midas" worries me a bit...more typically, technical riders specify Midas as a first and/or only choice! However, the grown up Midas boards are in a different price league to the GL2800 or M7...and I'd agree with him on the "economy" Midas boards, if that's not a contradiction in terms.

Bob

I'd put no midas on my riders if I couldn't guarantee something from the XL range. They're just not reliable enough.
Either way, if the engineer HAS said no digital, then... Analogue it is.

We all know the pro's of the digital board but at the end of the day if it IS his choice then you have to work to it. The GL2800 is ideal and for what it is, won't break the bank. Remember it only comes with 1 PSU so I'd always recommend purchasing a second.


Rob

Ok,
I sort of interogated our engineer on our spec sheet he's written out for us and basically his reason for the non digital/midas desks are plain preferences. We performed at troxy london(check out their website) on saturday and they've spent some serious cash on sound in this venue EV line array cost over 100,000grand, with the m7cl desk but he refused to use it and externally hired a soundcraft for FOH and monitors. He just said he prefers to work with soundcraft and he's not keen on the digital side. (Like I said before I just think it's because he's old skool). ........But im going to go with the allen & heath desk to keep the majority happy.


My next question is ampifiers?

what would you suggest I need interms of power to run the 1 x martin audio S218's and 1 Martin audio H3 per side??

I'm after light and sturdy as possible without breaking the bank, I quite like the look of Lab Gruppen fp6400(what are they like?, anybody used them?)

in relation to robs point on weight, I understand where you coming from but I won't be carrying any bands backline and instruments, any stagewear/costumes /set or lighting. Simply speaker and amps. I've done a deal on a mercedes sprinter lwb so that should suffice, we used to have a guy that came in a car (SERIOUSLY) I think it was a volvo and he had everything in there(almost).

I plan to start purchasing soon so I'll try keep yopu guys updated on any problems or queries,
and thanks to all for the sound(no pun intended) advice.

What worries me slightly is that you're trying to specifiy a system, but have had a no digital requirement put on YOUR finances, by your engineer? Surely he should have a good reason. I work in a receiving venue which features mostly well know music names, but very few First String ones - I'm talking decent, hard working gigging professionals. In the last year the number of analogue mixers passing through has dropped. Dropped very quickly! Both of the two popular Yamaha digital desks hold the top slot, with Roland now popping up more and more. The one thing that is pretty obvious too, is that people are taking the opportunity to increase their monitor mix facilities, simply because these desks make it easy to do. I suspect much is because they can remember previous gigs and recall them with accuracy, and for the musicians, there's a really benefit. I hear more and more musos asking for very subtle changes in their mixes. The Roland people also take advantage of no requirement for a heavy snake trunk - saving a decent amount of space and weight. More and more also are going silent stage, monitor wise, with IEMs.

As a guide, we had the Drifters in over the weekend, and the sound was excellent. A couple of them were at one point standing next to the mixer, having tiny adjustment made to their mixes, on a song by song basis - because they rotate lead and harmonies. Each number with different, pre-programmed monitor mix.

We also see many regular sound companies on the mediaum size venue circuit who have slashed their inventory of large format analogue desks, going to digital.

I cannot think of a single reason to even consider buying another big size desk that isn't digital.

Does your engineer insist on no digital simply because he hasn't any experience on it, and is simply a little worried by it? If so - this really is not the way to choose a system.

How about hiring a digital desk in for just one gig, to give him a chance to try one?

Being honest, if you leave it for much longer, you may not even be able to buy an analogue desk - have you spotted how quickly they are being discontinued?

If all else fails, maybe no is the time for a new mixer hardware or fleshware?

Paul I agree with you...I always see all the digital desks at various festivals we do, but the main reason why I'm doing this is firstly because as a uk touring band we need a consistent PA which we can rely on and be comfortable with and secondly I have a genuine interest in this field and I cant be a musician forever.....

So aslong as I fullfil our needs first I will be happy and unfortunately OUR engineer doesn't want to know DIGITAL,
After our problem at troxy, I personally think its because he can't run it and doesn't want to learn(STUPID, I KNOW).

Also from a financial view I know that just our gigs alone, within the next 18months or so I will have paid of the rig and there won't be pressure on me to gain work from other fields(if it does then bonus!)

Also, because im not an engineer I also need to learn the art of live engineering and im guessing it would probably be easier with a analogue desk than digital???.

Actually, no.

As a 'newbie' you won't have to go through the 'unlearning phase' - this is the bit many old uns, me included have problems with - always relating what I'm doing back to the old ways. People who have never used analogue forget all the history, and can just get on with it. If you are computer literate, then a digital desk can actually be easier. You can see the signal path through the desk, you can see the eq curve you have set - and sometimes just seeing it is enough to tell you why it sounds so odd. Setting up a big desk and adjusting compressors, limiters and effects is a real pain - and if I'm honest, very often when I know a limiter could sort out a few small snags, patching one in and setting it up isn't possible, if time is tight. On a digital desk, you prod a button to get the channel up, and a few button pushes later, there's a limiter.

It's a bit like lighting people who went from manual, fader filled controls to memory desks. They also had the same issues, and lots of people would only buy huge ones, that still had a fader per channel. Newcomers couldn't see why people wanted these at all, and pretty well the same thing is happening with audio.

Hi,

Which Bhangra band are you? It's been a while but I've done my share of Bhangra bands and a few other peoples as well! Just interested to know which one you are with.

If you can fit in under 32 channels, which you should be able to, I would very strongly suggest a Yamaha Ls9-32.
I know your engineer says no digital, I used to say the same, but nowadays if he expects to keep working beyond the next couple of years he is going to have no choice. Increasingly more festival shows are only providing digital desks, he should really jump at the chance of having access to one AND the chance to properly play with it and see how it works. The Ls9 is not the best and to be honest it isn't the easiest of the Yamaha desks to use but it's cheap and very compact. 1 person can carry it.

You're doing the wedding circuit so transport space is going to be tight as is set up times, soundcheck times, space in the venue to put gear. I can guarantee some of your venues involve stairs and other pain for the load in.

The Ls9-32 gives you 32 inputs and 16 outputs (including Left & Right) so plenty for your requirements.
There are effects and graphics built in.

Here is what you don't have to buy and carry around with you if you take the plunge and use it:

FX Units. SPX 990's are still around £300 each. Keep that money in your collective pockets.
8 ways of graphic equaliser (Left,Right,6 monitor mixes). Even a not very great Behringer FBQ3102 is going to cost £100. Leave that £400 in the bank.
Any compressors or gates being used? More money to spend/save.
An analogue desk (AH GL2800?) cased, £3300?
Flightcases for your rack of eq, fx, gates, comps... £250?
Cable looms to link everything together ... £150?
CD player for background music £20 at cash converters.

Carry all that stuff around with you or just one flightcase that does the lot?

When you all fall out with each other (musical differences of course) you have a chance of selling a Yamaha digital board. The analogue stuff will go for next to nothing on ebay.

You could even do it all on a LS9-16. You would have to buy some analogue to digital converters to get the full 32 channels but it would be cheaper than buying the Ls9-32.

Cheers,

Peter

Moderation: I've split the topic to leave this one to carry on discussing this individual problem, and I have moved out to their new own topic the interesting stuff on general analogue vs digital. they can be found here.

If you like the MB4, then SSE have some for sale second hand for £550 on thier website