Hi everybody
please bear with me as this is my first post!

I play in a duo,drummer ( SPD 20 ) and bass guitar.yes I know its a weird combination but we also play with a sequencer etc. Everything goes through 2 pairs of TDX 121,s and a pair of TDX 215,s . the 121,s are powered by a Crown XTI 1000 and the subs an XTI 4000
We are looking to cut down on the size of the rig as we aint getting any younger but dont want to compromise on sound quality or power,so are considering a pair of F12,s and a pair of s15,s ( a little lighter and less boxes)
So would these do the job? and would the Crowns be a good match?

I would really appreciate your comments.

oh,also is there anyone in the North West area where we could hire them for the night to try them out? I cant find anywhere locally who stocks them.

Cheers Terry

The F12s and S15s are very good cabinets, I think you will find them to be a more than adequate substitute for your existing Turbosound rig. The only other suggestion I would have if you are after some small but punchy boxes are either the Nexo PS10/LS500 system or the RCF TT range.

Either that or someone will almost certainly come along thinking you have £1,000,000 in the bank and suggest some of the D&B offerings... Lol

If you don't mind getting rid of the amps, the RCF TT+ range has had nothing but praise on here and is recommended left right and centre for questions like this.

Josh

You have a great rig already but the Martin cabs you suggest are also as good.
may I suggest though that you plum for F12's and S18's?
I understand the F12 is even a good match for the the S218 so the S15 may struggle to keep up.
Taking into account you have live bass and drums I think 18" subs would be better.
Mr Rob Beech (our resident expert on Turbo and Martin) may still be at Glasto ATM but I'm sure he will be along soon.

Your crown amps would be perfect for the Martin rig.

Welcome to the Blue Room!

What is it with lazy ass musicians not being arsed to carry a large enough PA for gigs....

You have a good setup with the Turbo, it just seems to me that you are looking to replace it with about half of the current setup. This is fine as long as you play very long thin venues you won't have any coverage issues, but as soon as you have a wide-setup to deal with you won't have enough coverage from a single F12. The single S15 probably won't be man enough for your music as one can imagine that it is quite bottom end heavy with drums and bass. If you really wanted a 4 box solution I would recommend S218 and F15 combo or from EV the new TourX System which again is a twin 18 sub and a single 15 top box. They are fairly light compared with the Turbo or the Martin.

I would suggest you save your money and invest in a roadie to carry the gear for you. This comes from a happy Martin/EV owner.


P.

So please tell me how a single 15" top would 'cover' more area than a single 12"?

The F12 and F15 both have a coverage of 80 degrees horizontal.

It wouldn't on the Blackline+ as they have the same 80 degree dispersion, however the F15 is louder and doesn't sound hollow when pushed hard, compared with the F12.

Having done several gigs with F12's I am always left thinking that it doesn't sound like a big concert sound it just sounds like a small box turned up loud.

ive always thought the F12 sounded better for vocals

I knew somebody would say that, I fully agree I think they sound very good for vocals.

but when you put the full band through them they lose a lot of their clarity, they make pretty good wedges as they have good vocal clarity, but in my opinion the 15" driver does a better job with a full band.

Thanks for all your suggestions,very interesting!
I,m sure the 2x18 sub would be amazing but at 87kgs ?! thats 40 kgs heavier than the turbo 215 and as much as I would like to hire a roadie to do the humping,those days have well gone,and he,d probably want paying more than us! Times have changed and we just dont earn enough to justify the cost
I do worry a bit regarding the spread one pair of 12s would give compared to the 4x12s we use currently, but to be honest, its only a minority of clubs we play which are not a conventional shape so I could live with that.
I agree the 18 might be a better alternative to the 15 for the reasons stated, a bit more depth and power for only a little more weight.
What are your thoughts on the M3 controller for this system? Is it going to make a big difference to the sound or could we live without it?

Once again,thanks for your comments,much appreciated.

Not used one myself but a lot of opinions on here would lead to believe you can live without it.
A cheaper alternative being the Behringer DCX 2496 or the DBX driverack.

Saying that, you may not need any other LMS as I believe you have pretty decent DSP in your amps.

To add.
Your xti 1000 may not be enough to give the best from a pair of F12"s or 15's.

I was just thinking that myself, you will probably need to get an XTi 2000 to provide the power ratings the Martins will want. I use my XTi 2000s to run a pair or four PS8s, and they do this job very well. 475W into 8ohms I believe, and 800W into 4ohms if you ever decide to run 4 F12s/F15s.

With regards to a dealer/stockist - give Peter Bawden a call at http://www.audiosoundadvice.co.uk/ (sunny Blackpool)

Thanks Chris I,ll give them a call . Anyone tried the F10s? what about 2 pairs of 10s instead of 1 pair of 12s?
The 2000 XTI seems to make sense actually.

Has anyone made a direct comparison between the TXD range and the Blackline? How different are they soundwise?

Once again thanks for your comments,really helpfull

I have made a direct comparison as I've owned both and used them side by side. The TXD boxes are a little brighter and possibly a touch louder short term, the F12's have a fuller sound. I use the TXD12m which is the same component s but in a wedge shape and thus a few kg lighter than the 121 and indeed the F12.

Personally unless you have alot of money to spend I'd stick with what you have. The only alteration if you really want to cut down on space would be to swap the subs for single 18's or even single 15's but you'll lose ALOT of the LF and inbalance the system significantly. a txd12m of mine goesout on top of a 2x18 sub (a slightly higher class than than the txd at that) and the system seems to be balanced well. The Tq425 is alot louder than the txd box in the real world (lets ignore on paper) but of course you are looking at £2700 per pair retail.

You're going to have to multiply the the cost per box by 4-6 to really increase the amount of output you get for physical size. I take it you have wheels on your subs and the tops flightcased in a pair or on a dolly to make your life easier?

And I've not been at Glastonbury

Sorry Rob, my mistake.

I thought you would have been doing the jazz world stage again..

Good advice, but the OP has stated that the kit he uses is too much.
We can't all lift multiple boxes like you can!

Terry, I'd advise a demo.
Modern kit can give more than you expect, 2 subs and tops per side, 12" and 18" ( RCF, Martin audio, Logic Systems, Dynacord or even the box pro)
Should be enough SPL for you average show band.
One question, are you using any backline?

Systems have progressed, but havn't got THAT much louder to 1/2 the number of boxes for the same volume and coverage.

I would say a swap from a TXD to Blackline was just swapping like for like, you could have the same effect by just binning 1/2 your current rig and keeping the other 1/2.

A step from Turbo/Martin down to Logic/Prowhatever would also be a step down.


Unless you are looking at spending a LOT of money like Rob says, you'd be better of keeping your existing boxes at the moment.

I hope you arn't saying that Logic System arn't on par with Martin/Turbosound? They are very much in the same league.

Thanks for the comments. I can see where you,re all coming from regarding what will be gained or lost if we decide to go for it,thats why I asked you all the question,and you,ve given me some interesting answers!!
So the only way to find out is by A/B ing the 2 rigs in a gig situation. I,ve learned in the past to never buy before you try properly,I,ve made mistakes before by auditioning gear in a shop then finding I hate it during a gig.

I spoke to a guy at Martin today and he,s going to arrange for some cabs to be sent up to a local dealer so we can try them properly.That makes sense to me.
Also,having spoken to another Martin dealer,he through a spanner in the works by saying the XTI,s were just not good enough to power this Martin rig,he just dismissed them out of hand.(didnt suggest any alternatives though)

What do guys think?
As regards to backline, I play through a genz benz amp and 2x12 cab.Drums are monitored thru a Roland combo.

Hi there, we used to use TXD121 monitors (5 of them) and the keyboard player had a set of Martin F10's. I have to say the F10's sounded better to us. Much cleaner and just as loud. We tried both with a series of really good amps (qsc powerlight, camco, crown etc) but always found that the Martin's sounded more pro and were easier to eq. We ended up selling the turbos and buying RCF art 10As. Sounds like a mad choice, but believe me, for monitors we are much happier. Lighter, cleaner and clearer. The keyboard player has even traded in his Martin's for a set of RCF's - but only on the basis of weight, not sound quality. We use turbo q light range up front - so we're certainly not anti turbosound!

If I were you, I would go with an S18" sub and an F12's a side. I find that the 18's are a nicer mix with a 12" top cab. Granted you may not get quite the spread of your current system, but I think you will actually get an equally good (probably better) sound.

[nelson] ha ha [/nelson]

So are Man Utd and Birmingham City, but there' still a fair old difference between the level of performances the two offer!

Blackline is a great product line; and you will get a punchier sound out of a 12"/18" combo than a 15"/18" one.

F12 against a TXD121. F12 may need a little less work for FOH duties. No louder, infact run flat they're slightly quieter in practise aswell as on paper.
So, where is the gain? Weight? 1kg, not worth mentioning. Physical size, no, they're the same size too. Practicality, no you can't use the 121 as a monitor.

S18 against a TXD215. So you are reducing the height 7 inches, but increasing width 1 inch, and depth by over 3inches. you are saving 2kg (again, not worth mentioning), However, on PAPER you don't lose any volume. However let's look at practicality.

The TXD215 needs 1200watts at 4ohms which should get you close to 130dB in the right conditions This is a large but easily manageable and affordable amplifier. The needs 1500 watts at 8!!!!!!!!!!!!ohms to give it the program power. This is a HUGE amp. Or 2 amps bridged (more hassle and money and weight.....we don't want that do we).


What are you REALLY gaining from swapping those boxes over?

NuQ12s and B15's and THEN you start to talk about an increase in quality and sound for a reduction in physical size and weight. You do talk about a fair increase in price also.



Rob

Just realised my mistake - it was the TXD12M's that we had, not the TXD121. Still stand by my comments though.

So,having read up on the RCF-TT series,would the TT08s and TT12s (active) be a good compromise to our existing TXD set up? Certainly compact and light,but would it be powerfull enough? and what about prices? Its not cheap,(£ 4500- is that the best price?) but if it did the job,might be worth considering.

Be interested to see what you all think

On paper, if you're not currently asking alot of your TXD boxes then that TT system may well work for you. However, figures on paper are one thing. There is little doubt that the overall sound quality of the TT system is likely better but then it is a significant step up in price. Whether the 8 and 12 combination are up to a drums and bass guitar combination or not is another question. However, given your under powered 121's at the moment then you may find they match fairly well. Certainly a reduction in weight and size.

The 12 and 18 combination may work better for you, but at increased cost yet again. Of course, given that the amplifier price has rocketed, you may well get the price you paid for the amps back as second hand.

Notice that this thread is a few weeks ago but just wondering if you managed to get hold of a blackline system to try out?


I have 4 x f15s and 4x S18s for sale if your still in the market for quality sound
Just a thought
Rusty

Just a quick comment here rob regarding the wheels on Subs?

is that such a good idea sound wise?
Personally I would be all for having castors on my S 18s as they can be heavy brutes, but I had read somewhere about losing punch by having them up off the floor? Would welcome your opinion
Rusty

How about putting casters on the back of the cabs? The cabs are still on the floor when in use and then you just tip them back when you need to transport them.

Josh

Wheels fixed to subs are usually on the back, not the bottom.

At subwoofer frequencies, the wavelengths you're worried about range from 9.82m (35hz) to 2.75m (125hz). A 4cm gap, typical from a box on wheels, shouldn't have any real effect on this. The only thing you'd lose is the mechanical vibration with the subs on the floor, which I'd say was an undesirable element of the sound anyway. But still, it's probably best to put the castors either on the speaker covers which clip onto the grilles, or alternatively put them on the back of the box. M