Hi all - I would appreciate your advice.

I play in a function band and we play venues ranging from 100 to 700 people. We have a 7 piece band which is basically a four piece rock band with a 3 piece brass section.

Our current system is really good, the output and quality is great. However it's a good few years old now and I am hoping to reduce the number of boxes I need to carry. The only downside of the system seems to be that it is quite directional. Often a bonus, but occassionally this causes problems in wide venues. It's also 8 boxes which means more trips to and from the van.

Current FOH System
4 x Turbosound TQ440
4 x Adlib Audio 1 x 18" subs
1 x Lab Gruppen 6000Q (4 x 1250 watt amp)
1 x Camco Vortex 6
1 x DBX Drive Rack

Budget for new system is probably 10K. Ideally, I'd like to make the new system 1 sub per side and 1 mid/high box per side. I would be prepared to lift a 2x18 sub if that's what it takes as long as it would match the output of the separate 1x18 boxes I currently own. I would consider active or passive. Passive is probably cheaper as I would keep a hold of my amps (both of which I like). However I'm well aware of the benefits of active systems particularly with the new light amps. I was thinking that horn loaded boxes may give me the output I need inside a few boxes... Have no experience of this though...

New system must be a realistic 2 man lift and be quick to set up.

I'm based in Newcastle Upon Tyne and have few links with pro audio suppliers.

I would really appreciate any advice you have? Many thanks.

RCF TT system.

Thanks for the reply. RCF TT System - what configuration? Which boxes and how many?

I'm not sure if the TT12A top box can array. You can get both single and dual 18 inch subs and everything is Active/Powered though.

You say 100-700 people, what is the average? You'd be better suited for the audience sizes in the majority of the gigs you play then hiring in systems for anything bigger and using just tops for smallest gigs.

[out on a limb & total guess work]Perhaps 2 stacks of D&B C series?[/out on a limb & total guess work]

Josh

2 stacks of C7 would be good for the job, that is six boxes though and the OP would have to buy secondhand to avoid blowing the budget by 5k, do-able with s/h P1200s within the 10k budget, however secondhand C7 is quite hard to come by.

4 stacks of secondhand C4 with P1200s would also work with the budget, however that's eight boxes, which is what he is wanting to get away from. C4 is easy to come by secondhand at sensible prices. 2 stacks of C4 could only work if setup along the short side of a long room, however there's then the problem of getting the C4-Top to a sensible height. Plus as a function band, lots of the time you don't know the shape of the room or setup position until you're onsite.

Tony

Many thanks, sounds like C7 may be the way to go. The right mix of portability and power. I'll have to be patient on the second hand market.

Anyone know where I can dry hire C7's in the North East Of England?

TMC in Bradford or Wigwam in Heywood Lancs are both d&b rental houses and sales partners

Check out the KV2 range of speakers. IMO and other engineers that I work with, they are much better than the RCF TT's.

Again another band with a not bad FOH lineup.

C7 might be a good replacement system for it, provided you have 2 people to set the PA system up everytime, as the top boxes weigh in at 52kgs each and the subs at 49kgs.

And in the other direction, Warehouse in Edinburgh and DM Audio in Musselburgh both have rental stock.

Keep an eye on Bob Kelly. He often has D&B listed and you might find a match.

Does the current system have the coverage, output, and sound quality that you need? If so:

Build cases or casterboards for the tops (in pairs or all four).

Bolt the subs together in pairs.

We are probably doing the same kind of gigs and we are using, 1 x tts18a per side and 1 x tt25a top per side and it does a fantastic job too, never really pushing the PA and sounds just great.

hi there, if youre interested we have an immaculate HK Audio Deacon system for sale. let me know.

How's about...
1 Q7 and a B2 (Or pair of Q subs) per side?
Might be just do able for £10k

And quite a lot less of a system than 4 turbosound 440s?

The issue with the 440 is its weight - However it is a very loud cabinet for its size, and you will be hard pushed to beat this.

As per usual with these threads, and you have a good amount of money, the best thing to do is to demo the offerings from Turbosound, D&B, Martin and Nexo. And working with the salesman in each case demo the recommended best solution.

I doubt that very much. There's very little Q on the secondhand market and to be honest the prices it fetches secondhand tend to be only a few hundred pounds per box less than buying new. Either of the above configurations needs 2 No. D12s and once you've added lids etc & EP5 cables you're going to be a good four or five grand over budget.

Thanks everyone, you've been a big help. Both the D&B Q7 and the C7 series seem ideal for me. There's a local firm with Q series for hire, so I could double up on bigger gigs. The RCF TT range isn't sufficiently different from what I have, both in terms of weight and output.

If I were buying new and I was without a current system, I'm sure I'd find the cash for some D&B.

Unfortunately I now recognise that it's going to be well over budget, even if I could find some second hand equipment. I don't think I could justify spending that much money on a system which may not be 100% better or lighter than my present system. If anything this has made me more appreciative of what I already own.

I'll going to keep on the lookout for some 2x18 subs, or perhaps some secondhand turbo TQ425 binns which would be a slightly better match sound wise and visually. I think the main weakness of my current system is the bass end is a bit short. As always it's a balance of cost and portability against sound.

Thanks again everyone - if anyone is selling some turbo tq425's then please get in touch. Likewise if you have a turbo lms-d6 controller then I would also be interested. I'm probably just being a snob but I keep wondering if the other weak point in the system is the DBX driverack.

I can't really understand how anyone is making money in this industry at the moment. Even at the daily hire rates I see for D&B stuff - I can't figure out where the profit is for the hire companies, let alone the musicians...

If you want to sell the TQ440 I have a friend who would be interested as he is looking for some

Mark

Thanks Mark - you are the second to offer. Realistically I want the D&B C or Q series, and can't afford either. I think the real reason for my original post was hoping somebody could come up with some magic, some system I had never heard of that might fit my needs. Dreaming I think!

So for the time being I will just sit tight. Obviously if I do sell I'll contact you through blue room.

There is a C4 system on Concerttrade at the moment for £7000. However, I'm not sure what this would achieve for you. It's still 8 boxes. How would you stack it? And will it really make enough difference to the sound to justify the expense?

I would stay away from C7. It's a whole different game to Q series, and I can't imagine you'll be impressed.

+1 on the KV2 offerings - very good power to pounds ratio and has excellent clarity across the mid-range for vox.

They're also based in Harrogate, which puts them nearby you for both sales service, backup and possible dry-hire to supplement on larger events.

The ES series have a rotatable horn on the mid/top box so you can adapt the dispersion for different venues easily and the system runs from combined DSP/Amp boxes which they do as a standalone rack on wheels or as a "cabinet-style" box that actually builds into the stacks - a brilliant idea for getting extra height on a system when needed without an extra speaker cabinet!

I'd definitely advise you to contact Mick butler (UK sales) and demo an ES system.

Guys, I think people have been on autopilot during this thread. Reading 3 words per line and then just reading the last post. Let's look at what the OP ACTUALLY wants to do.

He has 4 TQ440's and 4.. subs.

The TQ440 are a heavy box at 30kg but they make up for it in volume and sound quality. They're a 137dB box. Let's say that again. 137dB. That's 2dB louder than a W8, that weighs 90kg. They're louder than pretty much most boxes on sticks out there. I can only think of 1 box on stick that is louder and that's a Q7. by 1dB, though it has the weight advantage of being 8kg lighter..... bloody Germans.

They are alot to carry. The OP I can GUARANTEE doesn't want to be carting C7 (which is no bloody louder per box) about that's as near as matters twice the weight, twice the physical volume and ground stack only. (edit : ground stack only as an option for this system for the OP..... I know the box itself isn't)

Q7 is a good alternative as it cuts down on weight, yet retains the volume and pole mountability. But it's expensive new and rare (and still expensive) second hand.


C7 is more directional than the TQ440. On paper in it's basic form it isn't, but in practise as its fully horn loaded, it's dispersion figure is true down to a lower frequency. It also screams at you like a cat that's being repeatedly attacked by a bloke with a rasp before you hammer out half of your eq. (Please note once you've done this it does sound very good, but loses a fair bit of it's efficiency and is therefore actually a quieter box than the TQ440 if you want it to sound nice). The TQ440 has it's own settings for your processor and sounds fine with or without them depending on your taste.


Sorry, I've not heard the TT series stuff yet, when work calms down I'm going to arrange a demo (Thanks for the info a little while back Greg, I assure you I'll get round to it) but sadly on paper, they don't match the performance of the TQ440. Nor does anything from KV2, I'll repeat that I've yet to hear a good sound from a KV2 box but due to their popularity and good reviews from trusted people on here and elsewhere I'm putting it down to setup / operator error and I'm sure they're perfectly adequate boxes.

C4......oh come on.... Double the number of boxes, lose all your bottom end unless you put B2's under aswell. Need a truck to carry them. And have to live in the truck after selling your house to buy them.



So, what do I think?

I think that you're going to struggle with this one. If you use a van, flightcase the 440's in pairs. I take it you have wheels on your subs already. You can push 2 subs together.

I think the issue is the coverage more than anything. 1 440 per side positioned correctly is enough to cover 700 people without breaking a sweat, you'll only need a few watts per section per box to do this. But of course, if you have a wide room, this is where you need your second pair. Have you considered flying yokes? YES, it adds weight, and they're a pain to get on a stand but if you have big stands (say 3.5m max height or more) then you can get them right up in the skies and point them down. I've covered 2500 with 1 445 (newer version but same specs) per side. Have you considered smaller in / outfills. TQ310's, NuQ range? Remember, flight case the boxes in pairs and alot of venues, you only take a pair in.

If I can't persuade you to keep them by telling you you won't get much better without comprising either size, number of boxes, weight or your mortgage payments or all of the above (which is what you are trying to get away from if anything) then let me know and I too will be interested in the 440's. Either a pair or all 4.


So.... SUBS. TQ425's....... you're going to be fighting me for all the 425's in the country going second hand for quite some time. They're like something you're unlikely to get from a rocking horse. Damn good subs though. If you find any I can't recommend them enough. If you (or anyone else) finds any more than they need themselves PLEASE let me know. The problem is output. They're LOUD, they're LOW, they're LIGHTWEIGHT. What could be better? The problem is you STILL can't get one to keep up with a TQ440. A regular setup for me is 1 TQ445 and 2 TSW718 per side and the subs run out of steam before the TQ445 does. The TQ425 are a little quieter aswell, though under half the weight so it's excusable.

If you have the volume with 1 440 per side but use 2 per side for coverage then 2 425's per side will be ok, if you find you need the volume of 2 440's per side for your gigs for 700 people..... it's too loud


So to conclude. Don't go from 8 small boxes to 8 or 12 massive heavy boxes, to gain nothing but more back ache and a need for a bigger van.
Don't expect you to increase the sound quality of your TQ boxes, not matter what you spend. I'm not saying they're the best sounding boxes out there, just that you get alot of sound for your box on stick. Something that anyones 12+1 box isn't going to match in volume, and most likely not in quality at any competitive volume.



Rob

Hi Rob and all,

Thanks for the advice, makes an awful lot of sense. I've managed to get my head into "must have new system" syndrome, but can't actually buy anything justifiably better for sensible money. We frequently chop the system in half or quarters for smaller gigs, so the current system really does fit our needs in a lot of ways.

Rob - your experience with the tq440's and other competitive systems has been invaluable. People like that are hard to find up here in geordieland.

On the flightcase front - we did used to flightcase the tq's in pairs, but so many of our venues have stairs that it just was not worth the extra weight. It's rare that we get a flat load in. Plus 2 tq440's in one box with wheels is a very, very heavy lift. I think the biggest advantage I could give myself is buying a ramp for the van. Then I can stack the subs and tops and roll them out of the van together. Still, £700 for a ramp (raparamp from LMC) takes some justifying to the wife! Spending money on practical stuff isn't my forte.

I have temporarily lost one of my two road crew in recent months, and I'm finding the set up times and weight more of a strain. Whilst I'm meant to be negiotating with the latest bridezilla, I find that I'm wiring up desks, fx racks and speakers. That's after carrying all of the gear in. However if I invest some money in rack casing the desk with the necessary outboard stuff and making up some multicore connectors I can save a lot of time wiring. Again, spending more money on practical but not very exciting stuff.

For now, I'll get the system set up again with the help of a pro audio engineers ears.

Rob - I've sourced a turbo lms d6 controller for approx £700 from LMC - in your opinion is it worth it?

Everyone, thanks again for all your input.

Have a look at the Ra'alloy ramps, they're not the lightest in the world but will give you a lot of change from £700. Link below:

http://www.raalloy.co.uk/Van_Ramps/Single_...Case_Ramps.html

Edit (just checked asset register) - we paid £295.00 ex vat for ours, although that was a few years ago.

Thanks Tony, that's brilliant. Much cheaper and looks like it will be perfect.

I've recently added another ramp to my stock from raalloy. It's 7ft, standard sort of stuff, it was just a little less than £350 inc vat inc delivery. It's not the longest thing in the world but then again it doesn't take up the entire van. The amp racks I use with the aspect wide are around the 200kg mark and I have no trouble rolling those up the ramp on my own so you'd have no problems. An 8ft one isn't that much more money it just depends on your van pack and how much room you can have. They're also heavier of course.

Stairs are always going to kill you, there is no real way around it. A heavy duty stair climbing trolley thingy should pull a pair of 440's in a flightcase up a flight of stairs with one above and one below to keep it steady.

Remember though, a long (although heavy and awkward to move) ramp, can often be laid across a few stairs. You just have to organise your unloading and loading routine efficiently.

Multipins and patch panels make things so much quicker but you can soon rack up bills of several hundred pounds to do this for just one system alone.

Most of my amp racks have patch panels on them and the ones I use for the aspect are completely sealed with fan panels, in and out is easy.

When I toured with a band it was about a dozen 'clicks' to get the system up and running. Mains and harting to desk rack (all outboard and eq in the rack with the desk) mains and smaller harting input to amp rack with 4 wireless mic receivers 4 IEM transmitters and the amps. 2 boom arms out of the back of the rack with paddles on, 1 out of the front for IEM (that kept un-screwing itself) 1 smaller harting from a 12 way box with harting link through on it 2 keys channels bass and 1 guitar plugged in to that, the drum loom was 8 tails to a harting which plugged into internal dum mics and then 3 permanently attached booms for 2 x OH and hats. (After a while I ended up putting a stand and a 57 on the snare as I preferred it).

1 NL8 per side with links between boxes (4 boxes per side) Job done.

The cost was huge, but the time saved made it worth while. There's far too much to worry about at gigs without getting wrapped up in setting up the rig.

Will be ordering an 8ft ramp tomorrow - they look absolutely perfect. Worth joining this forum purely for this alone!

Keep looking into the harting multi pin connectors (Desk to Rack, Desk to multicore and mics). Scares me though, I'm no wiring expert (beyond typical XLRs and speaker leads) and the connectors are a lot of cash, especially when you're not 100% sure you are buying the right stuff. Multipins are only good if you don't end up wasting time constantly repairing them (ala my budget thoman mic multicores!)

Done properly with good cable and the right tools on the pins you shouldn't have any trouble with the connectors. We've all had budget Thomann mic multicores that we've ended up replacing all the bits on. Actually I tell a lie, mine were nicked from the entrance to the pub car park across from my house, but they didn't work at the time so I hope whoever stole them has had years of trouble from them, but they're still a nightmare.

I've had a couple of pin issues but it's mainly when some clown drops the harting plug off a balcony onto the floor and then drags it past every seat leg before throwing it on a stage and bouncing it up and down on the stage as it gets fig8 coiled into the cable trunk. If that had been an EDAC, it would have failed just by plugging it in.

VDC will make you up just about any kind of multipin system you could want. I don't believe that it is tooo expensive, when you factor in the complete pain that it is to do that kind of thing!

As a side note, if you are referring to the quality of the actual multicores that Thomann sell, I have never had a problem with mine and I would go as far to say that It has been one of the best value for money purchases I have made.

Mines even survived being run over by a forklift on gravel.

Josh

Thomann sell value for money, BUT a real Neutrik chassis connector, especially female ones with the button is so much better than the cheap foreign ones. I do have a small 12 way one for drums - which has proven pretty reliable so far - but it lives in a nice box when not in use, not kicked around all the time.

I found that reliability of equipment suddenly drops as soon as it is handled by anybody other than the person who paid for it/made it up.

The Thomann ones are fine if you can be bothered to go through and replace the connectors on them - totally worth it in that case. In some cases, the connector grippers which come on these super-cheap multicores don't actually grip the cable as the cable is too thin.

So they're fine IF you replace all the connectors.

So why not buy a length of cable, a small box and a pile of connectors and do it anyway?

Because that's even more time consuming than replacing all the connectors?

I don't see how.

To make from scratch you have to put the cable glands on in the box. Then cut the length of the tails.
you then have to screw in the panel connectors and solder them, or the other way around (whichever you prefer), then you have to cut the tails end, and strip and solder on the connectors.
Label them up and you're done.

So, replacing cables. You have to cut off the old connector, both sides. UNSCREW the old panel plugs, SCREW on new ones, solder. By this time the tails aren't long enough so you have to mess about stripping the outer cable.



Any other ideas?

Oh no sorry I only meant the connectors at the return (mixer) end. I don't see the sockets being as important as the connectors, as even cheap sockets are held in place by screws. Cheap connectors are usually held in place by the solder inside them as the gripper can't grip tight enough to hold a thin multicore cable...

But as you wiggle connectors in and out a few dozen times, and drop the box on its face and wrap the box edge around a drum riser leg and pull the cheap boxes strain relief off making it all vulnerable......... they DO fail.

it's still not a big job to do the job properly from scratch. I made the mistake when I bought some. I'm sort of pleased they got nicked.

Oh sure the box could do with being of good quality too, but IMO the connectors are far more important, and as long as you handle them carefully, a relatively cheap multicore with good connectors should last fine. For serious gigging though, you ofc do want high quality multis. There's a certain large venue near here in Bristol which is part of a chain of venues across the country which uses the studiospares multicores, and should know better...